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Old 02-26-2009, 03:47 PM   #101
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this is the setup that i would like to buy. I would want it as a complete package with everything i would need to complete the job.
+1
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:50 PM   #102
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It's not yours until you build it you vag. Breakout the papermache.
I don't really appreciate you calling me a "vag." I was initially surprised that you're familiar with vagina at all. Then I thought about that PM you sent me about your "Y chromosome issue" and it all made sense.




and I have that set-up on my car currently.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:00 PM   #103
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Glad your on your toes. Where are the pictures of your piece, I'd swear I saw them at one point.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:00 PM   #104
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Yes and No

We want a a few of versions of this one for the 1.6, one for the 1.8 and one for the 99 and later 1.8. I am fine if we have to get the Kia Sephia water neck to make it work too (does anyone have the part #? Plus what ever pipes and hoses BEGi currently has in the racer reroute to plumb this to the radiator.

The issue seems to be that with your current reroute routes everything is post thermostat so until the thermostat is open we do not get a good CLT or gauge reading of coolant temps. Also if a thermostat fails closed we get a low reading on the gauge and a warped head.

As Hustler says we also need an extra port with a plug for extra gauges and such.

I hope this makes sense.




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Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner View Post
Ok, let me see if I have this straight. Ya'll want the pictured piece w/ a groove for the thermostat?

What I am confused on is the extra ports.... This is a spacer and you replace the stock piece. Doesn't that have the temp sensor bung already? And the port for the heater?

It is easy enough to route the heater core out to the upper radiator hose. We have a splice already, just move it from the upper radiator hose to the end of the straight hose on the race re-route.

Basically, tell me what you want and we will build it.
Stephanie
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:04 PM   #105
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eraser x...look through my post. It goes over the provisions for all motors, including special provisions for swaps in 1.6 chassis cars. You can use the 1.6 or 1.8 waterneck...but BEGi should make a slimmer one. . Its wise to go with the extra ports and plug them so they can make 1-piece, and you could add stuff to it in the future. I speak from experience on a few of my points...currently looking for more ports!!! They should also use shorter studs, not bolts, so you can take out the T-stat without pulling the head off. I used "all-thread" and nylon lock-nuts with locktite like whoa.

You're spot on with the CLT sensor problem in failure...but it can't help with tuning unless the t-stat is open.

Last edited by hustler; 02-26-2009 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:07 PM   #106
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Glad your on your toes. Where are the pictures of your piece, I'd swear I saw them at one point.
I'll take pics tonight if I can remember and can manage to get some time with all the supermodel competition I'm judging tonight.

I forgot to take pics when I put it together.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:47 PM   #107
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just get begi to make a pipe like the "bigger" pink one:
I found a hose today at the auto parts store that does what you have drawn for the "bigger" pink one. It is just about perfect actually, and fits right on the thermostat housing, oriented so that it points upward.

Thus I am the master Hustler. If you bow down before me, acknowledge that I have the actual "bigger" pink one, and that you lust for my "bigger" pink one, I may give you the part number.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:48 PM   #108
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Do you want to look at my set-up again? I can swing by tomorrow on my way to Houston and you can check out my bung-holes...if I talk myself out of driving the Cobalt.
Yes, please. I printed all this out and gave it to Corky.
Stephanie
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:57 PM   #109
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Yes, please. I printed all this out and gave it to Corky.
Stephanie
Basically. In its simplest form, and for my own understanding.

We want to 1. remove the front water neck, 2. retain the heater cores circulation through the mixing manifold and 3. send the coolant from the back of the engine to the rad.

All that would need to happen is for your spacer to be slightly modified. 1. It needs to be able to accept the thermostat from the front, and 2. provision to accept the sensor that is in the housing at the back of the head. 3. The orientation needs to be mirrored. The pipe coming out of it needs to go to the heater core, while a KIA sephia or 1.6 neck is used for the other direction.

Flow is simple. Pre thermostat(using the spacers pipe) -> Heater -> Mixing manifold. Post Thermostate(using a re-oriented neck) -> back to the radiator.

Want to make it even more streamline, tap the spacer in a way to allow it to re use the rear water neck but re-orient it to point to the cold side.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:03 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
I found a hose today at the auto parts store that does what you have drawn for the "bigger" pink one. It is just about perfect actually, and fits right on the thermostat housing, oriented so that it points upward.

Thus I am the master Hustler. If you bow down before me, acknowledge that I have the actual "bigger" pink one, and that you lust for my "bigger" pink one, I may give you the part number.
You may have a bigger pink one, but mine is the perfect shape...just ask anyones who's been strapped into the harness and gone on the ride of their life.

We need a panel to judge our "pink ones."Maybe we should go to the "1337 speak" forum to further discuss our bung-holes and pink ones.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:09 PM   #111
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Let's see if we can consolidate this. This is open to comment.

We want a spacer to go on the hole on the back of the head, like the one shown in This Picture. We will cover this spacer, on the firewall side, with either a stock water neck outlet or a Kia water neck outlet. Said outlet shall feed water to the radiator upper hose, and may be pointed to either the hotside or coldside of the engine. I expect that coldside orientation will be most prevalent, at least among turbo users. The spacer shall be grooved on the firewall side to accept a stock thermostat. The thermostat shall be placed between the spacer and the water neck outlet, such that everything which follows shall be before the thermostat.

The spacer shall be drilled and tapped to accept the following:

1: An NPT-threaded barbed fitting to supply the heater core. This shall face towards the exhaust side of the engine, and be roughly horizontal.

2: A threaded hole to accept one stock CLT sensor. I assume that the thread size of the 1.6, 1.8NA and NB CLT sensors are all the same.

3: (optional) A threaded hole to accept the fan thermoswitch used on 1.6 engines. A plug shall be supplied to block this position when not in use.

4: (optional) A threaded hole (presumably 1/8 NPT) from which to draw cooling water for the turbo. A plug shall be supplied to block this position when not in use.

5: (optional) A 3/8" NPT threaded hole to accommodate a GM-style CLT sensor for use by MegaSquirt owners. This same hole could be used, with an NPT reducer, to accomodate a 1/8" NPT coolant sensor as well. A plug shall be supplied to block this position when not in use.
Sidebar: If an appropriate adapter can be found, it is probably acceptable to consolidate 3 and 4, as only 1.6 users need the second coolant sensor, and all 1.6 engines have a water outlet on the block which can supply the turbo.

Sidebar II: It is probably acceptable to consolidate #4 and #5 into a single 3/8" NPT hole. A person who really needs both can probably figure out something with a 3/8" brass Tee and a 3/8" NPT hose-barb nipple.

The placement of these fittings must be such that none of them interfere with the NA CAS (in either the 1.6 or 1.8 position) or any stock coilpack. (Frankly, I don't care as I have neither a CAS nor a coilpack...) It is probably acceptable that fitting #3 (1.6 fan thermoswitch) may interfere with the CAS when installed in the exhaust cam position (1.8), as these two applications are mutually exclusive.


As per Hustler's pink picture, it would be nice if an appropriate hose and/or tube was provided to accommodate the routing of the hose which exits at the water neck outlet and runs to the radiator.


For now, the heater core return shall be ignored, as it is a separate issue. It is not desirable to return it to the upper radiator hose, at least for street applications. In my opinion, it should be left as stock (returning to the mixing manifold), although it would be nice if an inline restrictive orifice (with perhaps a 3/8" or so passage) were provided to place in series with the feed into the heater core.


I agree that the design of the current Bell spacer could be modified to work. In fact, its circular shape makes it a better platform to work from than the JR spacer. Eliminate the large welded pipe, add the threaded holes, and lathe a groove for the thermostat.


Have I missed anything?
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:14 PM   #112
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Steph, another thought has occurred to me.

Can we DIYers buy your spacer with no holes drilled it in, nothing welded to it, etc? Just the raw spacer itself? What is the approximate wall thickness?
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:14 PM   #113
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Joe, you need to discuss angles for the CLT sensors in relation to the coil packs, and respect both 1.6, 1.8, and swap cars. Its very tight back there.

Also, my Omori water temp sensor uses BSP.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:17 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Joe, you need to discuss angles for the CLT sensors in relation to the coil packs, and respect both 1.6, 1.8, and swap cars. Its very tight back there.
I did discuss it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
The placement of these fittings must be such that none of them interfere with the NA CAS (in either the 1.6 or 1.8 position) or any stock coilpack. (Frankly, I don't care as I have neither a CAS nor a coilpack...) It is probably acceptable that fitting #3 (1.6 fan thermoswitch) may interfere with the CAS when installed in the exhaust cam position (1.8), as these two applications are mutually exclusive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hustler
Also, my Omori water temp sensor uses BSP.
see:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
5: (optional) A 3/8" NPT threaded hole to accommodate a GM-style CLT sensor for use by MegaSquirt owners. This same hole could be used, with an NPT reducer, to accomodate a 1/8" NPT coolant sensor as well.
You can use the 3/8" NPT hole and adapt.




Or, since we're all manly men here, we could just get the raw spacer (assuming it comes pre-lathed for the thermostat) and drill it to suit our individual needs.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:17 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Joe, you need to discuss angles for the CLT sensors in relation to the coil packs, and respect both 1.6, 1.8, and swap cars. Its very tight back there.

Also, my Omori water temp sensor uses BSP.
Ugh... you are making my head hurt already!
Stephanie
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:20 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Steph, another thought has occurred to me.

Can we DIYers buy your spacer with no holes drilled it in, nothing welded to it, etc? Just the raw spacer itself? What is the approximate wall thickness?
+1. I think they should sell a spacer that, if possible, is 100% ready to go and tapped for every sensor possible such that it works with as many setups as possible. And then sell a bare spacer with nothing tapped for the cheap DIY'ers. I do disagree with Joe about using T's and fittings to make one work vs. it already being tapped though. I know I don't want to see how many fittings (potential failure points) my cooling system has. We need an elegant solution, not a hacked one. We've got plenty of hacked solutions full of compromises.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:22 PM   #117
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I stand corrected. Reading comprehension ftw!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner View Post
Ugh... you are making my head hurt already!
Stephanie
yeah, I had a big pile of parts...it was like a chinese puzzle.

I think Joe is right on everything.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:25 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Let's see if we can consolidate this. This is open to comment.

We want a spacer to go on the hole on the back of the head, like the one shown in This Picture. We will cover this spacer, on the firewall side, with either a stock water neck outlet or a Kia water neck outlet. Said outlet shall feed water to the radiator upper hose, and may be pointed to either the hotside or coldside of the engine. I expect that coldside orientation will be most prevalent, at least among turbo users. The spacer shall be grooved on the firewall side to accept a stock thermostat. The thermostat shall be placed between the spacer and the water neck outlet, such that everything which follows shall be before the thermostat.
So we do not need to put a back on the spacer piece?

Quote:
The spacer shall be drilled and tapped to accept the following:

1: An NPT-threaded barbed fitting to supply the heater core. This shall face towards the exhaust side of the engine, and be roughly horizontal.
No problem.

Quote:
2: A threaded hole to accept one stock CLT sensor. I assume that the thread size of the 1.6, 1.8NA and NB CLT sensors are all the same.
I would assume the same also. No problem.

Quote:
3: (optional) A threaded hole to accept the fan thermoswitch used on 1.6 engines. A plug shall be supplied to block this position when not in use.
On the spacer housing or on the tubing portion?

Quote:
4: (optional) A threaded hole (presumably 1/8 NPT) from which to draw cooling water for the turbo. A plug shall be supplied to block this position when not in use.
What about doing a 3/8 NPT and you can use it for EITHER the gm style sensor or use a reducer fitting for the turbo coolant?

Quote:
5: (optional) A 3/8" NPT threaded hole to accommodate a GM-style CLT sensor for use by MegaSquirt owners. This same hole could be used, with an NPT reducer, to accomodate a 1/8" NPT coolant sensor as well. A plug shall be supplied to block this position when not in use.
Sidebar: If an appropriate adapter can be found, it is probably acceptable to consolidate 3 and 4, as only 1.6 users need the second coolant sensor, and all 1.6 engines have a water outlet on the block which can supply the turbo.

Sidebar II: It is probably acceptable to consolidate #4 and #5 into a single 3/8" NPT hole. A person who really needs both can probably figure out something with a 3/8" brass Tee and a 3/8" NPT hose-barb nipple.
If there is space, as an option, it does not seem like a problem. Can some of these ports be on the bottom of the spacer?

Quote:
The placement of these fittings must be such that none of them interfere with the NA CAS (in either the 1.6 or 1.8 position) or any stock coilpack. (Frankly, I don't care as I have neither a CAS nor a coilpack...) It is probably acceptable that fitting #3 (1.6 fan thermoswitch) may interfere with the CAS when installed in the exhaust cam position (1.8), as these two applications are mutually exclusive.
We have a 1.6L and 1.8L motor here. I assume we should be able to fit all this stuff around what is on the motor right?


Quote:
As per Hustler's pink picture, it would be nice if an appropriate hose and/or tube was provided to accommodate the routing of the hose which exits at the water neck outlet and runs to the radiator.
Going to the radiator, around the intake manifold, that is easy.

Quote:
Eliminate the large welded pipe, add the threaded holes, and lathe a groove for the thermostat.
The groove is no problem. Why eliminate the welded pipe? Don't you need that to go to the upper radiator hose?

Quote:
Have I missed anything?
We do have a front thermostat block off plate.
Stephanie
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:31 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Can we DIYers buy your spacer with no holes drilled it in, nothing welded to it, etc? Just the raw spacer itself?
Sure.

Quote:
What is the approximate wall thickness?
3/8" to 1/2"

Stephanie
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:33 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Can we DIYers buy your spacer with no holes drilled it in, nothing welded to it, etc? Just the raw spacer itself? What is the approximate wall thickness?

what do you think I have? But it would be nice to come pre-machined for a thermostat...
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