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Old 01-25-2009, 11:12 PM   #21
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jason: VVT has a pretty weak relationship to manifold pressure.

example: at 3 psi at 3000 rpm, you still want advance.
http://www.y8spec.com/dyno/vvt_boost.jpg

that's what the graph shows with the green line. read the run desc. "adv til 3 psi" and the power line drops back down.
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:15 PM   #22
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The V.V.T. function can be controlled on the pulse width modulation (PWM) high current aux output 1,2, or 3. On the 94-97 the stepper motor is controlled on number one, so I would assume if you bought the the NB model plug and play you could either use whatever is hooked up to number 2 or 3 that is under the hood, (you probably don't need it as its all EGR equipment on the 94.) or if those outputs are not used for whatever reason you would have to run a direct line. On the 01-up diagram it is controlled by AUX 3 on J2 of the Adaptronic, but once again, that isn't rigid, any three can be assigned.
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:24 PM   #23
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I had some questions about various compatibilities and thought I would post what I found here...

The ECU is wired to control the alternator and immobilizer on the 99 and up. You can directly control the alternator through a table, with whatever logic you want. So you should be able to boost or reduce output based on the input parameter of your choice, and their are logic controllers available to make more complicated algorithms that would vary an output with multiple inputs.



There is a table like this available for every output.

The units also of course control most if not all the EGR equipment and the A/C along with the IAC valve and so on.

No retrofitting of sensors is required. Trigger functions are ridiculously configurable on the Adaptronic.

Wide bands can be wired in using a serial, a single wire to the cockpit, or the stock narrow band connector.

BTW, y8s' your torque curve from VVT is incredible
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:38 AM   #24
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question: I have an aem uego wbo2 right now. will this be able to connect to the adaptronic so I can monitor afr's with the wideband when logging and use the autotune feature?

I know the lc1 and a few others are compatible. The manual says so. But I havent seen aem listed on there as one of the wideband choices.
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:44 AM   #25
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Plugs right in using serial, single wire, or the stock narrow band wires. Sample maps are in the Adaptronic forum, along with sample logs. You can use any number of tools to dial in the tune on the fly.

You can use the "gauges" "E.C.U data" or there is actually a "fast tuner" function that shows you the cell, on the fly and helps you get the car into the right cell for tuning. All those tools are located under "windows" in the software.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
jason: VVT has a pretty weak relationship to manifold pressure.

example: at 3 psi at 3000 rpm, you still want advance.
http://www.y8spec.com/dyno/vvt_boost.jpg

that's what the graph shows with the green line. read the run desc. "adv til 3 psi" and the power line drops back down.
What about in vacuum? I reckon reducing the overlap during cruise (in vacuum) will reduce pumping losses and thus improve MPG.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I had some questions about various compatibilities and thought I would post what I found here...

The ECU is wired to control the alternator and immobilizer on the 99 and up. You can directly control the alternator through a table, with whatever logic you want.



There is a table like this available for every output.
What is the sampling rate of an aux output like this for the alternator?
The problem with the Hydra and alternator control was that it wasn't fast enough - the latency acted like control loop "phase lag" which produced oscillation.

Quote:
The units also of course control most if not all the EGR equipment
I thought the NB factory EGR control was closed loop and used a pressure sensor to sense EGR flow.

Re: boost control - it's only RPM based? So it'll keep the wastegate fully closed at part throttle?
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
What about in vacuum? I reckon reducing the overlap during cruise (in vacuum) will reduce pumping losses and thus improve MPG.
give me some RPM and MAP areas to reduce overlap in and I'll experiment?
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:23 PM   #29
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What RPM range do you advance?
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:46 PM   #30
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I think it's something like this:
(sorry for not having real numbers, the hydra doesn't "work that way" and my cheat sheet is at home)

0000-2000, full retard for idle stability
2000-3500, full advance for low end grunt
3500-5000, transition from advance to retard
5000-redline, full retard

I'm also fully retarded below 50-60 kPa.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
What is the sampling rate of an aux output like this for the alternator?
The problem with the Hydra and alternator control was that it wasn't fast enough - the latency acted like control loop "phase lag" which produced oscillation.

I thought the NB factory EGR control was closed loop and used a pressure sensor to sense EGR flow.

Re: boost control - it's only RPM based? So it'll keep the wastegate fully closed at part throttle?
The PWM's can run:
23hz
25hz
50hz
100hz
128hz
200hz
250hz
500hz
1khz
2khz

As far as waste gate...
You can control it with the standard closed loop vs rpm controller, there is also boost limiting by gear, and you can use other outputs to cut or add power to solenoid based on your conditions.

I would think you would always want the waste gate closed regardless of conditions except to prevent over boost. At cruise it would extract energy from the exhaust gases and reduce pumping losses. This also defeats the inertial lag from a very slow spinning turbine on tip in, decreasing transition to boost time.

I'm not sure of the NB emissions system, but the NA system is controlled by the computer. It may in fact be a separate closed loop system I don't know. I was just making the point that if it has pin on the E.C.U. and their were plenty of outputs to operate them, then they are probably included as an aux out for the Adaptronic.

The VVT on the Adaptronic is either a 500 rpm stepped based system, or you can use your fuel map, or alternatively a completely separate fuel map for more precise control. That could be (only, or, and) TPS MAP, RPM.

Last edited by TravisR; 01-26-2009 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:22 PM   #32
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Just when I had my heart set on getting a megasquirt this comes to town.. now I dont know what I want
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:40 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Just when I had my heart set on getting a megasquirt this comes to town.. now I dont know what I want
I know what you mean. I'm tempted to sell my MS-II kit.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:47 PM   #34
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<Puts on body armor

I know there are a lot of really heavy MS users on this forum. I also understand its extremely efficient from a cost perspective, but by the time you buy it, understand it, build it, and worked the kinks out what have you really saved? There are still people fighting with their MS's on this forum after having them a very long time. The same day my Adaptronic arrived I unplugged the stock computer and plugged this in. I wired up the MAP, I downloaded a pre configured map, wired my O2 sensor up, started the car, had to tune in the idle a bit, and then went driving with the autotune on. No assembling, glitches, flashing, guessing, programming, hacking, or patching.

It was a little rough at first before the map got tuned in, but within a day it smoothed out, and within a week it was a complete hiccup free tune driving just like stock. I'm not saying putting a standalone in your car is for everyone, but if your going to do it, this is ALOT easier then dealing with the Mega.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:36 PM   #35
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I guess really it depends on how long you can keep them at this price.. I have to see how much money I get with my tax return/bonus
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Old 01-26-2009, 08:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
I think it's something like this:
(sorry for not having real numbers, the hydra doesn't "work that way" and my cheat sheet is at home)

0000-2000, full retard for idle stability
2000-3500, full advance for low end grunt
3500-5000, transition from advance to retard
5000-redline, full retard

I'm also fully retarded below 50-60 kPa.
There you go, why not go full retard below 100 kPa?
So whenever you reduce VE in cruise by going non-optimal in VVT timing, you will reduce pumping losses, methinks.
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post


As far as waste gate...
You can control it with the standard closed loop vs rpm controller, there is also boost limiting by gear, and you can use other outputs to cut or add power to solenoid based on your conditions.

I would think you would always want the waste gate closed regardless of conditions except to prevent over boost. At cruise it would extract energy from the exhaust gases and reduce pumping losses.
The resulting high exhaust backpressure will increase blowdown losses, and increase pumping losses across the throttle butterfly. BMW actually actively opens the wastegate in the 335i during cruise vacuum.

Quote:
The VVT on the Adaptronic is either a 500 rpm stepped based system, or you can use your fuel map, or alternatively a completely separate fuel map for more precise control. That could be (only, or, and) TPS MAP, RPM.
So it can't do closed loop VVT control with a 3D target map based on MAP and RPM?
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
There you go, why not go full retard below 100 kPa?
So whenever you reduce VE in cruise by going non-optimal in VVT timing, you will reduce pumping losses, methinks.
Never go full retard man... NEVER (tropic thunder reference)

To my thinking the conservation of energy heats air in the intake tract and helps atomize, and optimize the burn. It also increases EGR flow, by increasing the pressure gradient and reducing induction losses.I see your case though, and its application. I'm not always right, but I pick a side for a reason.

It can vary VVT angles on some permutations of the three, or another variable. So RPM MAP TPS(4D map)... RPM MAP... RPM TPS... RPM ... OTHER

Last edited by TravisR; 01-26-2009 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
BMW actually actively opens the wastegate in the 335i during cruise vacuum.
but if your wastegate was closed you wouldn't have vacuum?
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:37 PM   #40
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Misunderstood what was being talked about...

Last edited by TravisR; 01-27-2009 at 12:00 AM. Reason: Pass...
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