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Old 01-31-2008, 09:40 PM   #181
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Quote:- multiple warnings from several foreign intelligence agencies, including the UK, Russia, Egypt, Germany, Jordan, Morrocco - and the most detailed, from the Israelis

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Did any of them say, hey, on 9/11 they are gonna hijack planes and try to run them into buildings in NYC and DC?
Yes they did. They mentioned the WTC specifically.
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:50 PM   #182
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Our own CIA had warnings, so did the FBI. But the credibility of the people who were calling in was in question. Yes the CIA fucked up not acting on the warning signs, but that doesn't mean they pulled the trigger. Local NYPD fucked up too. They had much information to sift through. They also had allot of misinformation to sift through. Terrorists have brains too. Misinformation was supplied too. They got one over on us, and it rocked our intelligence system. Everything now has been "fixed" to make sure the same mistakes don't happen.
Our government fucked up, it doesn't mean they did it intentionally.
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:54 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Quote:- multiple warnings from several foreign intelligence agencies, including the UK, Russia, Egypt, Germany, Jordan, Morrocco - and the most detailed, from the Israelis

Yes they did. They mentioned the WTC specifically.
Wait if it was an inside job with demolition, why would other countries have warnings?
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:56 PM   #184
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I think Jason was at a Hillary rally

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/pol...hecklers.cspan
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:57 PM   #185
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Because the PNAC Neocon worldwide US Terrorist demolition companies all got to gether to fool the CIA. DAAAMMMMNNNN YOU GEORGE BUSH DAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:59 PM   #186
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And Bill.... only 17 of those people were from Saudi Arabia for the record.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:15 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Loki047 View Post
Wait if it was an inside job with demolition, why would other countries have warnings?
Because the terrorists didn't know about the demolition explosives. <shrug>
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:23 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
Heat and pressure. That is what is needed to cause plastic explosives (most commonly used for demolition) to explode. I am sure a plane impacting, and then turning into a fireball, would certainly have set off any explosives on those floors and caused it to pancake immediately onto the other floors.
Firstly the pancake theory is total BS - if the explosives had gone off on that one floor, that floor would have collapsed, but the rest of the building wouldn't have. Second, it turns out that the first part of the fire caused by the burning fuel burned out in a couple of minutes, and didn't reach the center of the building. Some firemen actually reached the floors where the planes hit and reported a couple of smoldering fires, nothing out of control. They weren't panicking; they had radio'ed in what they were seeing, and reported what was needed to put it out. Thirdly, if it was anywhere near as hot as needed to melt or soften steel, the firemen wouldn't be able to go up there.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:31 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
The fire had black smoke, which meant it was an oxygen poor fire (rich air-fuel ratio), which don't burn very hot. This is shown in the presentation. In order to weaken steel significantly, the temperatures required need forced air such as what you have with an oxy-acetylene torch.

Again (a)the temperatures are too low (b)the margin of safety too high (c) if it slowly deformed, there would have been visible sagging.

Buckling steel would not fall at free-fall speeds.
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Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Oh bullshit dude. BULL ****.

Have you ever seen video of the Hindenburg Zeppelin after it caught fire? The flames were Orange, even though it was full of HYDROGEN which burns CLEAR. Think HOUSE FIRE... Carpet, furniture, ceiling tiles, ducting, etc, etc, etc, etc... All that **** on fire causes BLACK SMOKE...
The Mythbusters showed that the Hindenburg fire's color was the coating burning, not the hydrogen. Carpet and furniture burning when there is poor airflow, produces black smoke. The temperatures aren't very high. You get a much higher temperature when you mix air and fuel together, and you get a blue flame, such as with a gas stove. If the air supply hole of the gas stove is blocked, you get a yellow sooty flame. Jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to soften steel significantly, especially with an air-starved fire.

If you watch the WTC fires, it started out strongly, then the jet fuel was cosumed in a few minutes, and the remaining fires were a smoldering office fire. This was described in the radio transmissions of the firemen that got up there. If it was anywhere hot enough to soften steel, the firemen would not have been able to get up there.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:35 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Here ya go, just ONE reference from an Engineer debunking your Foil Hat Theory.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_2639813949
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Astaneh's model has simulated the first few seconds of the plane's impact and entry into the building, and he is refining the model to include damage to the plane, the building floors and the internal core columns. The next step will be to include the effect of fire heating the damaged structure and initiating its final collapse.
I couldn't find the modelling of the final collapse. I haven't seen any, other than the straightforward calculations that show that the structure only offered resistance = 15% of the weight of the building.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:00 AM   #191
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Jason, again without either transcripts of conversations or data backing up your claims this really isn't going to go anywhere.

PS. When it comes to metal you don't need a lot of heat to anneal it (compared to melting it). So plane hits, jet fuel burns (i will argue for more than a few minutes which can be proved by taking the energy content of the fuel over time, if its too short like you say enough energy would be releases to yield the material) it anneals the metal and bam floors fails.

A rule of thumb my professors always used;

I put my faith in god everyone else brings proof
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:26 AM   #192
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http://www.911research.wtc7.net/talk...eltdownre.html

The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy

The simple facts of temperatures:
1535C (2795F) - melting point of iron
~1510C (2750F) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825C (1517F) - maximum gas temperature increase imparted by a hydrocarbon flame burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)

Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.

The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800C.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:29 AM   #193
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The above is from a concise slideshow:

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/talk...rs/slides.html
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:36 AM   #194
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/\
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:00 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/talk...eltdownre.html

The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy

The simple facts of temperatures:
1535C (2795F) - melting point of iron
~1510C (2750F) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825C (1517F) - maximum gas temperature increase imparted by a hydrocarbon flame burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)

Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.

The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800C.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.
Annealing happens (with most steels) way below 800 degrees c



See jason i made a claim, and I back it up with evidence. Now you make a claim and back it up with evidence. Stop posting links and tell me to read them. We are having a discussion, what if your beloved Ron Paul went into a debate and every time another candidate made a point he just said, You need to read this book and this link, and then quoted a small passage out if it without context or supporting evidence for its validation.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:08 AM   #196
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_flame

No mention of temperature there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premixed_flame

No mention of temperature there.

Put jason from your sweet little link

"Fires have never caused column failure in steel structures."

Really? Amazing. You should tell all those forging mills the the fire they use doesn't do anything.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:27 PM   #197
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Forging mills need to pump air to get high temperatures. Open flames don't get hot enough to melt steel. Acetylene torches need oxygen premixed with acetylene at high pressure to be able to cut steel.

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-02-2008 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:01 PM   #198
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The South tower which was struck later, took a let less time to collapse. This, despite the fact that most of the airliner's fuel burned outside the building:





Big fireball outside the South tower:

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Old 02-02-2008, 02:02 PM   #199
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This steel building burned fiercely for nearly 24 hours, yet did not collapse:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=th2bnG_7UyY


The fire started 2/3rd of the way up, just like where the South tower was struck.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:06 PM   #200
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Jason, you should let your 911 coherts know that, that was a quote form their slide.

Ok so far we've pretty much shot holes in all your claims anything else?
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