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When you buy a new transmitter from Gates, they have a pallet of Prestone AF2000 concentrate drop-shipped to your location as part of the install kit. Makes sense. Prestone is manufactured in the US, and they probably get a hefty discount at the volume they're purchasing every year.
What I didn't learn until recently is that when you buy a new transmitter from Rhode & Schwartz, they ship a pallet of Westfalen Antifrogen N (der wärmeträger für den universellen einsatz) to you, from Germany.
German transmitter, German coolant. And they're not even sending the concentrate, this is the PRE-DILUTED kind, so more than double the volume of liquid being shipped across the ocean as compared to the domestic model.
In the grand scheme of things, adding four hundred liters of antifrogen to a shipment that already weighs many tonnes isn't that big of a deal, it just seems... odd that their US office hasn't identified a locally-available product which is certified for use in their machines.
Like, with Gates, they're not being precious about it. They're like "It's engine coolant. You can buy it at your local auto parts store, we're just saving you the trouble. We expect you to supply a drum of distilled water to mix it with."
Rhode, being typically German, are like "Nein! DAS antifrogen est zat for veech machine ist designed!"
61% distilled water, precisely mixed to an exact ratio, in a German factory, by Germans.
(Ok, more likely by Poles or Romanians. But under the supervision of Germans.)
I am also a tad surprised by the mixture. That would put the freezing point around -24°C, which, while uncommon in Westphalia, happens all the time here.
At Sears, it's not really an issue. We dump our heat into plate exchangers with building-supplied chilled water on the other side. But most transmitters not located in skyscrapers have big outdoor radiators. If you turned one of those rigs off and left it to cool down, it'd freeze.
I am also a tad surprised by the mixture. That would put the freezing point around -24°C, which, while uncommon in Westphalia, happens all the time here.
I'm not, I suggest 2 to 1 mix for antifreeze down here in Texas.
Water is a better thermal conductor than antifreeze.
Less antifreeze means better cooling in my book and less expense.
It puts the freeze point at about -20 which works fine for my climate.
I saw ZERO for the first time in my life on Tuesday.
It was DAMN cold!
I cannot imagine -24 or lower
I did however learn something from your post.
Germans think the optimal mix is 39% exactly....
Location: Detroit (the part with no rules or laws)
Posts: 5,677
Total Cats: 800
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
61% distilled water, precisely mixed to an exact ratio, in a German factory, by Germans.
(Ok, more likely by Poles or Romanians. But under the supervision of Germans.)
I am also a tad surprised by the mixture. That would put the freezing point around -24°C, which, while uncommon in Westphalia, happens all the time here.
At Sears, it's not really an issue. We dump our heat into plate exchangers with building-supplied chilled water on the other side. But most transmitters not located in skyscrapers have big outdoor radiators. If you turned one of those rigs off and left it to cool down, it'd freeze.
So, i'm not an HVAC or refrigeration specialist. But i am someone who buys 200+ ton chillers that operate at sub freezing temperatures. Everything from the glycol percentage to how thick the solution is plays a factor in it's effectiveness. Even if it doesn't need to be good down to -35F, the percentage helps efficiency. In fact, i have a meeting with some people on Tuesday regarding a 190ton unit i just bought. Maybe i'll ask, if i can remember.
I was stationed at Loring AFB, Maine, many moons ago. One day during the alert changeover, it was -97 with the wind chill. Crazy **** happened. The rubber bands around the "cookies" must have had their molecules all line up because they were completely stretched out. No elasticity left. The cellophane wrappers on the decode documents (same stuff as around a pack of cigarettes) disintegrated like dust. One of the maintainers dropped a wrench from about 10 feet in the air and it shattered. Extreme cold is some bad ****, and it's worse when you're not prepared.
I found out later the kids were still sent out to wait for the school bus. Extreme cold isn't that bad when you're prepared for it.
At Hancock (where my backup transmitter is), we have an unusual scenario. The building allowed us to remove exterior windows on the 93rd floor and put heat exchangers in them. So that transmitter I do run with a 50/50 mix. Same for the Liebert, which is a "Glycool" model.
At Sears, since the building is providing us with water from a rooftop evaporator (and have promised that it will be in liquid form when it comes out of the pipe), I plan to run whatever the thinnest mix is that the manufacturer will allow, relative to the anti-corrosive stuff. Our friends across the room with the Rhode transmitter are therefore just fine with their 39% antifrogen, as their plate exchangers are tied into the same water loop that we will be.
So, i'm not an HVAC or refrigeration specialist. But i am someone who buys 200+ ton chillers that operate at sub freezing temperatures. Everything from the glycol percentage to how thick the solution is plays a factor in it's effectiveness. Even if it doesn't need to be good down to -35F, the percentage helps efficiency. In fact, i have a meeting with some people on Tuesday regarding a 190ton unit i just bought. Maybe i'll ask, if i can remember.
I am an automotive HVAC specialist and that unit's data makes me feel insignificant...
331 Lbs of R134a is MORE than I use in a year.
It looks like that manufacture also likes just above 33% antifreeze
And then look at those flow rates...
MINIMUM is 360-380 gallons per MINUTE!
Max is 1400+ per minute!
Holy sheep **** Batman!
Location: Detroit (the part with no rules or laws)
Posts: 5,677
Total Cats: 800
Yeah our pumps are 1800gpm, so we split the flow of one pump between two chillers in some cases. Both evap and condensing side. But, i may have to do some playing around to split the flow of 3 pumps since we only have 2 headers feeding 3 chillers.
We're talking 5000 gallons of glycol here. And pulling the refrigerant out of these damn things to do repairs is a painful process. Usually have to let it suck down for 48 hours.
In our south bend facility we run Ammonia chillers. Trust me when i tell you, it is some NASTY ****.
Little tiny buggers, but the run like a swiss watch.
02-18-2021, 12:26 PM
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