Mazdaspeeder

Great results Emilio. I myself am plotting my plan for this winter, normally do 12 weeks of TrainerRoad sweet spot base and 8 weeks of build. I was going to cut half of the base on the front end to do specialty on the back end but after seeing this am thinking to stick to the plan as before, though this year im going to do short power build instead of general

Over the last 2 years I’ve gained a ton of fitness (thanks to TurboTim for getting me the initial TR trial) and can do long rides at a fast pace and stay comfortable, but want to work more on my top end power. I know it’s a give and take and hoping that I don’t lose too much of my longer range power in favor of the 1-5 minute area

1/1/19 I ramp tested at 268w, this spring I came out at 310w. Hoping to hit 320-325 next year, which at 170lbs isn’t world class, but enough to have fun with. For the rest of this fall Leading up to the plan I’m just aiming to do a few more centuries and take a few more KOMs. Also getting more into MTB now that I suck less at it and really enjoying the new FUEL

acedeuce802

iTrader: (1)

Great to see your fitness success, thanks for continuing to share your experiences. Do you have any tips on nutrition? I'm starting to figure out what I like on the bike, but not so much for rest days and recovery. I do nothing for sub-hour rides, carry a water bottle for 1-2 hours. For anything over 2 hours I eat a big pancake breakfast and drink ~50oz of water at least 2 hours prior to start, then consume 2 servings of Tailwind per hour (usually concentrated in 5oz flasks) and whatever I feel like I need for water (my typical 5ish hour ride has a well pump at each third, so 2 water bottles on the bike is enough to drink as much or little as I want/need). I find that in order to feel recovered, I either need to eat enough that I gain weight, or it takes me 3 days to recover from my 5 hour ride. I'm assuming the answer is that I just need to eat cleaner, less sugar when not on the bike, lower calorie-dense foods, etc.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

You can never have "too much" base. Again, it's the foundation you build your house on. Base is what typically separates you from faster riders, not the quality or quantity of their intervals. You have the entire year to train, no races. Think long. I'd stick with the 12 week base build. Keep the 8 week power/speed building phase but break it up into 1-2 week blocks. After each short block, switch back to at least 2 weeks of low intensity base. Drop a single day of HIT into each base building week, less than 2hr ride. So the program looks like a stair step. As you build fitness you'll be able to make those focuses HIT harder. Make them ugly. Like back to back days, shorter rides and blow your brain out. Rcover and switch back to base building. Never stop building and maintaining base.

Base is your "home". HIT is the vacation. Most amateurs treat HIT as home and take brief vacations to do base. That's wackbards.



Looked up Tailwind, hadn't heard of it. I assume you are referring to this "Endurance Fuel" https://www.tailwindnutrition.com/ta...endurance-fuel



That's just sugar. No fat or protein. Sugar only fuels are fine for sub 2hr race pace efforts. For lower intensity or longer duration, you need fat and protein. This is why you crave burger and fries after a long ride eating just sugar. That much sugar on long rides triggers insulin. Your body struggling to maintain correct blood sugar levels. If and when you run out of fuel, you bonk almost instantly. So shorter HIT efforts, Talwind works. Longer or lower intensity efforts, I'd suggest either real food like home made stuff or something with a little fat and protein. Have burning leg pain on long rides despite eating plenty of sugar? That's your body going catabolic, basically consuming its own muscles for fuel. Never let that happen as it takes a while to recover from.

I eat Skratch bars and RXBars on most rides. Hammer gel (like Tailwind) for shorter races. For long races I use Hammer Perpetuem. Similar to your Tailwind but lower glycemic plus some fat and protein. Experiment with different foods to see what your stomach likes.

Carb intake should be matched to calories burned basically. Days you don't ride or do much else, cut way back on carbs but keep the fat and protein. Kinda Keto-ish on days off. I'm not on a Keto diet but food on yours days off the bike should lean this way. Your intuition of cutting carb intake off the bike is correct. Big days on the bike, fuel up. Best to load up 16-18 hrs before the ride then a decent sized brekkie. That time period allows the meal the day before to be fully absorbed as muscle glycogen and waste eliminated.

Aim for at least 1.2 protein per kg of body weight every day. On harder effort days, up to 1.6g or so. Body can only absorb about .5g protein per kg per meal. Much more than that gets peed out. So much of the protein from that 10 oz lean burger is getting wasted. Protein must contain the 9 essential amino acids to be fully bioavailable. My diet is most plant based. No meat, almost no soy. Mostly quinoa and pea protein plus legume (bean) and whole grain combos that create complete proteins. I make exception for cheese because I love it (whey). Clinical studies show that relying solely on animal protein reduces free testosterone levels when compared to plant based diets. Low T is bad for any male but particularly endurance athletes. Eat some protein and fat for brekkie, some for lunch and some for dinner. Animal protein is fine, just understand how it affects your health, athletic performance and the planet.

Don't afraid of fat. That's a myth propagated by the sugar industry in the 1960's. It worked. Stupid low fat foods on supermarkets shelves and everyone is brainwashed. Google "Sugar Research Foundation". Peanut butter is lyfe.

I've mentioned it before here, but basic weight control means skipping a full sized dinner if you don't need it. A big evening meal is an artifact from a 12-15 hr day of labor from the 18th century. Sat at your desk all day, drove to work? Have a little smoothie a cup of tea for dinner. Brekkie and lunch matter.

Mazdaspeeder

Thanks for that. The plan I have currently looks like this, except the lower TSS weeks are all “base” type rides to recover from the higher intensity. 1 “rest” week per 5 weeks of work in the base plans, 1 per every 3 in the build plan

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Depending on your age and recovery ability, you may not need an entire 7 day week to recover, particularly from the base building weeks. If you're not sore, PRV/Whoop scores good, start into the HIT week before the following Monday. I use PRV, resting HR and feel but a lot pf racers are using Whoop now.
Even at 57, my rest weeks are usually more like 4 days after a base period.

acedeuce802

iTrader: (1)

Awesome, thanks so much for the detailed response! Looking back on the research and threads that I used to come up with my current use of Tailwind is mostly racers that use it for shorter events (like you said) and others saying "I used it for a century and didn't bonk". Definitely a lot of broscience on the internet related to nutrition. Looking at the nutrition facts of what I've been using compared to what you use, it definitely makes sense why I feel the way I do towards the end of big rides and why recovery is slow.

Mazdaspeeder

might be a good idea to break up that recovery week with some potential outdoor MTB stuff, normally I just ride inside for 20 weeks in a row

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Problem with inside only is you don't get much upper body or core work. Balance matters.

Mazdaspeeder

Yea but the weather here isn’t ideal for year round outdoor riding so I’m usually happy to plug away inside. I’m not on a high level where I pay attention to stuff outside of the plan like diet, sleep, etc

one day

cal_len1

Being like you, the weather is usually crap for training in the winter here, so I add in some weight room activities to develop core and build some muscle along with some TR. Besides, weight training is good for endurance performance

Mazdaspeeder

I haven’t done any weight training in years, probably will work on some core stuff at home but I’m not interested in lifting anytime in the upcoming future.

I’ve settled on TR SSB1&2 and Short Power build MV for all

doward

yall just need gravel bikes and thermal bibs. That was my escape from zwift last winter, and i had a blast.

Mazdaspeeder

I’m not saying you can’t get fit outside, but comparing the progress I made following a program indoors compared to the locals who all parrot the “ZwIfT iS DumB i OnLy RiDe 0uTsIdE AlL YeAr” is pretty hard to do because I made leaps and bounds of gains and they just didn’t. There’s a reason top tuners use a Dyno and not just the street.

Then again if you want to ride outside because it’s fun, or have a good place to do intervals, or live in a climate that allows year round riding, or whatever, then do you and pay no mind to my rant about ignorant people (who have been silent lately)

Dalardan

Here we have 3 months of real winter We're going with Fat Bikes in MTB parks covered with 6-8 feet of snow, dammed to create singletracks. All the MTB technicalities are removed, just a succession of smooth curves.

This is really good to practice torque application on your pedals. You can't stand on your bike climbing on snow, the rear tire will break traction. You need to pull on your pedals to flatten the torque curve.

I can't say it's the optimal way to exercise, but it's fun, you can stay in Zone 2 and it's a good reason to buy another bike!

Mazdaspeeder

Just curious on your take on this: finishing my 5th year riding, going into my third winter of indoor training. 310w ftp, 170lbs, 4w/kg, have 10 hours a week I’m willing to commit to training from mid November to end of March or mid April

Is doing a “traditional base” plan going to be effective with this time in mind or is 10 hours not enough volume to reap benefits from LSD workouts and I’m better off sticking to a more intense sweet spot build plan

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Assuming the SS (sweet spot) is also 10hrs, the difference to 10hrs of 90% Z2 might not be huge. The variable is recovery. If doing ~22 weeks of the sweet spot burns you out, then it's too much.
From what I'm reading, sweet spot is basically Z3, which might be 3.5-5 mmol blood lactate for most riders. Just above what's sustainable all day. I think that's what most racers would consider tempo or just below TT pace (Z4).
I'm assuming SS comprises something like 2-4hrs per week out of the 10. My gut is that would work for a few weeks but lead to fatigue, stagnation or both. My core belief is that you can't do the exact same thing every week and expect to have gains every week forever.

If your SS plan has some periodization, then it sounds logical. Like maybe a 3 week build then switch to something different for a week then back to the SS program. Trainer Road is fully legit, chock full of actual sport science. Not some old dude who stayed at a Holiday Inn (yours truly).
My only reservation would be doing more than 3hrs of SS every single week for 22 weeks. I can't see that working.

Again, you can never have too much base. Any program that leaves you deeply fatigued or stagnated needs to be mixed up.

Mazdaspeeder

If I was doing SSBase it would only be about 6 hours a week to avoid burnout, traditional base I could Handle more I think. Here’s some snips from the plans.

Traditional base is (3) 4 week blocks as seen below


TB1 (could add some easy rides here Wednesday for more volume)

TB2

TB3

to compare here is SWEET SPOT BASE which follows a 5 week “on” and 1 week “off” format totaling (2) 6 week blocks so same 12 weeks

SSB1

SSB2

BUILD wise I’m looking at this 8 week plan, 3 weeks “on” and one week “off”


Build weeks 1-4

Build weeks 5-8

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Not feeling the SS plans. Your "Home" with those is race pace simulations for 3 weeks and one easy week. Seems backwards to me. Also they're only 6-7 hrs and you said you can do 10. Whatever you choose, target those 10 hrs or as much as you can schedule and recover from.

I like that last 3 weeks of TB or TB1. But you only get 3hr+ rides on TB3 mixed with high IF rides. Makes no sense. If you have 10hrs, you gotta have at least one 3hr ride to deplete muscle glycogen and build some economy/fat burning. I'd use those TB or TB1 plans but stretch one of those rides to 3-4hrs.
I'd alternate those TB planes with 2 weeks of the one of the SS plans. If you have time for, and can recover, I wouldn't reduce hrs on SS weeks. Just 10hrs all the time. If you need a rest week after a few SS weeks, you probably will only need 3-4 days to feel completely fresh again. Don't waste those extra days waiting for Monday. Start the next phase when your head and legs are fresh again.

Mazdaspeeder

With those TB plans they set it up so you do TB 1, 2, and 3 in order. You’re saying to do 4 weeks of base 1, then 2 weeks from SSB, then the next 4 weeks of base, and another 2 from SSB, and same for the final 4 and 2? That puts me at 18 weeks total, so not much time for the vo2 work I want to do, or maybe I can target that during those more intense 2 weeks between the TB plans?

It’s much easier to just follow a pre set plan, but also probably less effective. I do thank you for taking the time to answer though as I’m getting more intrigued with something more custom, seeing your results. My base phase of 12 weeks at 10h a week isn’t going to compare to your 35 weeks at 16h but should still be beneficial

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Each SS block should be ramped in intensity from previous block. Never repeat the same HIT blocks. But yeah, always more base than HIT/SS. That's endurance athlete training 101. Be willing to experiment, pay attention to fatigue/Whoop/PRV what have you.

I hadn't intended on building a specific program for you. I'm not a coach and I would caution you to not confuse my attempts at conceptualizations and hypothetical plans with specific plans from folks that wen to school for this stuff.
My take is that these (non-athlete specific) online training programs are a product. As such, I'm always a bit suspect in how and why they build their programs.

In the simplest terms, any plan that has an amateur doing 2-4 days of HIT every week for a few months goes against everything I have come to understand in my research and own experimentation. Gotta find ways to build your aerobic engine with high volume then spice with with short blocks of HIT.