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Old 10-31-2008, 12:18 AM   #121
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I'm afraid a democracy needs some "socialism" to function properly. Especially considering the government exists for the people in the first place. If you make it hard for 75% of the nation to buy what they need, don't be surprised when they turn around and vote for tax breaks for the lower classes.

I still dont understand what exactly the fear of "socialism" is during this campaign. Like saying a 25% income tax is not socialist and a 27% income tax is socialist?? It's all bullshit campaign rhetoric.
See here is the fundamental problem with your argument, when I was living in PRoC (People's Republic of California) nearly 50% of my income was going to taxes, yes, that's indecent but socialism is independent of the tax rate.

Now socialism isn't the tax burden but rather socialism comes into play when you take my money in order to provide services for others. When my hard work is punished by a direct reduction in my income in order to pay for services to be used by people "less fortunate" than myself. Sorry. Maybe I worked for it! The "less fortunate" might wish to try that too. In California for instance, my taxes subsidized services for illegal aliens and people unwilling to engage in responsible breeding. That's socialism.

I seriously believe that the "75%" whom you claim are having difficulties buying what they need simply are not working hard or smart enough. You don't have to be poor, it's a choice for most people. I know that the truly disabled should get help from the government, and I am all for them receiving services. However 75% of the American population is not disabled or poor. If my wife and I can both manage to make 6 figure salaries on a high school education, I think that just about anyone else can too. Finally now, we are getting additional education, it's costing us nearly nothing to do it. I am getting my Ph.D. education fully funded with a 70k a year stipend and she has been getting her Master's for free while working at a job that pays in excess of six figures... we are NOT special people... We are Joe and Jill the plumber. I worked hard, got a 4.0 in college, and was rewarded for that work. She will be going to law school next year, and when she does so, she will get scholarships for her hard work. Work hard and you get rewarded, that's how the system is supposed to work.

My wife and I have both had the opportunity with nothing more than high school educations to make terrific money, secure educational opportunities, and to afford everything we need. I believe that even Obama has lived that same dream... doesn't look like he's hurting. Those who work hard are rewarded for that hard work in a capitalist society, Obama and his cronies do wish to change that and do not believe in the current system.

It's funny how the politicians routinely exempt themselves from the legislation that they foist on the populous... Tell me why Diane Feinstein finds it necessary to carry a hand gun, but votes to ban them? Most politicians are hypocrites.

As to your argument regarding the need for some socialism, sure, we do need some... we have plenty of it. It's called the U.S. Military. Possibly the largest socialistic organization in the United States. You want free medical care, a paycheck, and three hots and a cot... come join up.

Mark

Last edited by Markp; 10-31-2008 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:33 AM   #122
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Here in NYC in the past year people have left just a noose on the door handle of a black professor's office at Columbia University. Hanging a black person or a noose in reference to a black person is an immediately understood symbol of hatred. We all know what it is referring to. It is a hate crime because it is a reference to an act and a period of time where a people were enslaved and killed because of race. You don't have to call them a N***er because the noose symbolizes the same hatred the word does.

Here's the definition from the FBI's website:
A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.

Hanging an effigy of Sarah Palin, while in bad taste and really not funny, is not a hate crime because it does not symbolize hatred based on her sexuality.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:35 AM   #123
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Hanging an effigy of Sarah Palin, while in bad taste and really not funny, is not a hate crime because it does not symbolize hatred based on her sexuality.
How do you know it wasn't done because she is white? In the case of the black man/woman, the assumption is that it is because of their race. No proof needed. So why not extend the same logic to the white woman who is being targeted with a hate crime is normally associated with black racism and is obviously a statement about her "whiteness."

Mark
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:41 AM   #124
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I believe that even Obama has lived that same dream... doesn't look like he's hurting.
The exception does not prove anything. Just because some people make it against all odds doesn't mean that millions of people aren't held back. You know a black man is more likely to be imprisoned than go to college? Being white and being a male immediately puts you at a greater advantage than the rest of the population. Where you are born and therefor the school you go to greatly impacts the projection of your life. Saying the poor and underprivileged are lazy is amazingly simple minded.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:47 AM   #125
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How do you know it wasn't done because she is white? In the case of the black man/woman, the assumption is that it is because of their race. No proof needed. So why not extend the same logic to the white woman who is being targeted with a hate crime is normally associated with black racism and is obviously a statement about her "whiteness."

Mark
If they hung her with a KKK hood on or some other symbol of "whiteness" I might see it as an ironic hate crime. Otherwise, when not in reference to a black person a noose looses that historical symbolism. When Muslims hang an effigy of Bush they're not doing it is an ironic comment on his whiteness, they're doing it because they want him dead because of his policies. Which is why I don't think hanging an effigy of Sarah Palin is funny or appropriate.
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:23 AM   #126
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In other news, I was told today to take down the pumpkin by my neighborhood. If it was civilian housing I'd tell them to go play in traffic, but it's military housing so if I refuse they'll make things difficult for me. I might try something like posted above..
heh
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:59 AM   #127
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The exception does not prove anything. Just because some people make it against all odds doesn't mean that millions of people aren't held back. You know a black man is more likely to be imprisoned than go to college? Being white and being a male immediately puts you at a greater advantage than the rest of the population. Where you are born and therefor the school you go to greatly impacts the projection of your life. Saying the poor and underprivileged are lazy is amazingly simple minded.
It's not about the exception. I went to college at University of Texas - San Antonio, a predominantly Hispanic college not far from one of the lowest income neighborhoods in the country. Plenty of successful people have come from nothing to make their lives considerably different. In fact, in my Ph.D. cohort we have 5 students all from fairly modest backgrounds. 3 of the 5, I believe, are first generation college educated.

Are you saying that educational institutions are not accessible to blacks? UTSA where I went to school accepted more than 96% of ALL its applicants. I doubt that you can say I had an inherent advantage in my undergraduate education because of race, they admit EVERYONE. As a matter of fact I could not qualify for a number of scholarship programs because of my race and income. Tell me, why are Blacks more likely to go to jail than college? Is it all from social inequality?

"One of them, Curtis E. Brannon, told a story so commonplace it hardly bears notice here. He quit school in 10th grade to sell drugs, fathered four children with three mothers, and spent several stretches in jail for drug possession, parole violations and other crimes." (NYT, 2006) <- is this the system or was it the choices this man made?

No, there are complex factors that influence this outcome. White people in trailer parks are more likely to have legal problems than whites living in high SES neighborhoods. Blacks who have graduated college are less likely to go to prison than whites who have graduated college (1.6% vs 3.5%). Less than 2.5% of inmates in state prisons have a college degree. (Source: BJS, Survey of Inmates in State and Federal Correctional Facilities, 1997)

Giving my money to minorities will not change the outcome for them, raising the minimum wage and increasing welfare programs do quite the opposite. Educational opportunities, I believe are good options... but many programs already exist. Going to college in this country as a minority is easier compared to the same process for a white male with identical resources.

It's not about being white and male, it's about education and talent. As I stated, my wife was making 6 figures over 10 years ago. She's not male, I assure you, however she is predominantly white (with some American Indian.) So is it now about being white??? Strangely enough her boss is Black (or African-American, if you prefer), and college educated. I can get behind education oriented initiatives, I firmly believe that increased education of our citizenry is the answer.

So explain to me, how are all these people being held back? What are the impediments that would be resolved by digging deeply into the pockets of successful people to give money to those who have not been successful?

I will concede that there are economic disparities between genders, ethnicities, and other factors. However opportunities exist for everyone and if you show the whole picture, it's clear that an educated populous is a prosperous populous. So the real question is how do we increase the numbers of minority students engaging in activities that are shown to improve social outcomes? Blaming the successful for not doing enough for minorities and reaching for our wallets is not the answer, increasing the income of low-skilled members of the work force is not the answer, and finally paying people to stay home and breed is definitely not the answer!

Show me the data that supports the assertion that hard working and INTELLIGENT people are not able to substantially improve their lives because successful people have not given enough in taxes.

Mark

Last edited by Markp; 10-31-2008 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:55 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by johndoe View Post
Here in NYC in the past year people have left just a noose on the door handle of a black professor's office at Columbia University. Hanging a black person or a noose in reference to a black person is an immediately understood symbol of hatred. We all know what it is referring to. It is a hate crime because it is a reference to an act and a period of time where a people were enslaved and killed because of race. You don't have to call them a N***er because the noose symbolizes the same hatred the word does.

Here's the definition from the FBI's website:
A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.

Hanging an effigy of Sarah Palin, while in bad taste and really not funny, is not a hate crime because it does not symbolize hatred based on her sexuality.
This is the main thing I am sick and tired of in this country, the double standards. You want everything to be equal across teh boards as far as race goes then make it EQUAL not in favor of the black man because they were enslaved for 200 years. I don't give a f**** personally, I didn't do it and not a single one of them alive had to endure it, get over it, I'm sorry, but thats the way it should be.

A white man hangs an effigy of Obama and it's a hate crime and threatening a presidential candidate then damnit it should be a hate crime when two gay mexicans hang one of Palin as well as threatening a vice-pres candidate. Personally while I do think it's in extremely bad taste I don't think it should be punished by law in either case.

The "a noose is symbolic to hatred against blacks" argument is stupid, there have been just as many white men hung in a noose as black men and to immediately draw the conclusion that its a racist action is ignorant. That being said, I ask again what about all of the Salem Witch trials and things of that nature in which white women were "persecuted" and hung...codn't it then be seen as a prejudiced action when they hang an effigy of Palin...double standards, screw em.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:50 AM   #129
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If everyone is college educated and makes 6 figures, since according to Mark everyone has the opportunity to do so, who will do the low paying but completely necessary jobs?

What's the national $/hour rate in the US?
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:59 AM   #130
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This is the main thing I am sick and tired of in this country, the double standards. You want everything to be equal across teh boards as far as race goes then make it EQUAL not in favor of the black man because they were enslaved for 200 years. I don't give a f**** personally, I didn't do it and not a single one of them alive had to endure it, get over it, I'm sorry, but thats the way it should be.

A white man hangs an effigy of Obama and it's a hate crime and threatening a presidential candidate then damnit it should be a hate crime when two gay mexicans hang one of Palin as well as threatening a vice-pres candidate. Personally while I do think it's in extremely bad taste I don't think it should be punished by law in either case.

The "a noose is symbolic to hatred against blacks" argument is stupid, there have been just as many white men hung in a noose as black men and to immediately draw the conclusion that its a racist action is ignorant. That being said, I ask again what about all of the Salem Witch trials and things of that nature in which white women were "persecuted" and hung...codn't it then be seen as a prejudiced action when they hang an effigy of Palin...double standards, screw em.
A black man hanging by a noose is iconic. It's an image people identify racial hatred with. No different than a KKK hood or a burning cross.

A similar iconic image would be a 747 flying into an office building. It isn't only about the act of killing people, it's the message being delivered. Not just an attack on people, but an attack on a nation and a way of life.

Take a cartoon showing a husband slapping his wife. First thing that comes to mind is wife abuse. Show the opposite, a wife slapping her husband. What comes to mind? It doesn't have as much power does it? But really it shows basically the same thing, one person striking another.

It isn't a double standard, it's understanding that certain images hold more power than others.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:16 PM   #131
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what happened immediately after Herbert Hoover increased the taxes for people making over $100,000 from 20% to 55%?
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:32 PM   #132
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This is the main thing I am sick and tired of in this country, the double standards. You want everything to be equal across teh boards as far as race goes then make it EQUAL not in favor of the black man because they were enslaved for 200 years. I don't give a f**** personally, I didn't do it and not a single one of them alive had to endure it, get over it, I'm sorry, but thats the way it should be.
implying racism shouldn't exist because there are no more living slaves or living former slave holders is beyond naive. you can't wish away a history of racial hatred.
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:39 PM   #133
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matt are you the only democrat at your job as I'm the only republican at mine?
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:39 PM   #134
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:44 PM   #135
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The exception does not prove anything. Just because some people make it against all odds doesn't mean that millions of people aren't held back. [I]You know a black man is more likely to be imprisoned than go to college?[/I] .


So who's fault is that? It's not mine. I doubt it's your's. It's easy to blame "society". (That "society" guy sure takes the blame for a lot of crap doesn't he.) The inequity in "society" has been addressed in innumerable ways by innumerable cultures since the dawn of man. It has always existed. It has never been resolved. With all of the various forms of government around the world, billions of people, wealth and education beyond what has ever existed before, inequities still exist. You can look in every corner of every country and there is no Utopia.

The problem is how do you resolve the inequity? Education? Money? Increased security and policing? Increased freedoms? Socialism? Benign dictator? Seriously, how do you change the cultural mindset of a particular group of people. Advertising? Really, how?


Man has never existed in such large numbers or in such close proximity as he does now. It will take far smarter people than currently exist and a far more advanced culture to have the will and means to create the equitable utopian society that is the goal of left leaning people.

Damn Star Trek for giving us the idea that it is even possible. Of course even they had trouble with the Klingons and Romulans.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:01 PM   #136
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matt are you the only democrat at your job as I'm the only republican at mine?
nope, not at all. this place is 100% probama. we even have a superchristian for obama.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:15 PM   #137
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nope, not at all. this place is 100% probama. we even have a superchristian for obama.

i decided to keep your timing light. btw. you don't need it as much as i will benefit from it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:32 PM   #138
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i decided to keep your timing light. btw. you don't need it as much as i will benefit from it.
and i've decided to stop loaning out tools because people seem to hate socialism
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:43 PM   #139
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and i've decided to stop loaning out tools because people seem to hate socialism

you're just someone who lives in my neighborhood.
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:00 PM   #140
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If everyone is college educated and makes 6 figures, since according to Mark everyone has the opportunity to do so, who will do the low paying but completely necessary jobs?

What's the national $/hour rate in the US?
Not everyone who is college educated makes 6 figures, nor are people who are not college educated barred from making 6 figures. That is the great thing about this country! Your salary is loosely based on your intrinsic value in the society, and some occupations are more valuable than others.

The fry cook at McDonald's and the laborer in an factory (even a vehicle production line) should not make the same as in oncologist, neurosurgeon, or lawyer. If you want economic justice for the drug dealer, fry cook, or factory worker... find a way to increase their desire to increase their value through education. Believe it or not, many people are happy at a particular income level (be it 30k, 50k, 70k, or 250k.) and are not looking to work harder, get more education, or otherwise improve their financial situation. They have other goals, like raising a family, pursuing idealistic professions, or simply valuing time more than money. It is their right to be happy with that... Who are we to force economic justice on those happy to be earning a particular wage level. There is more to life than spreading the wealth around.

Mark
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