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Old 07-10-2012, 12:33 PM   #81
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I don't know, and am torn on it.

I hear lots of accounts, and my 5yr old has recently started lying about small things to avoid admonishment. First time I've ever wanted to "beat something out of her." It only perturbs me because I want her to be able to talk to us about anything, and to always know what's going on with her. Fibbing is a direct strike against that.

I'm going to stay my course for now. My mother beat the ---- out of me. It only made me a -----up who dreamed of moving out and doing things my way, which ended up being the wrong way for a long time. It could have been that she was just a lazy beater, but deep down I know she honestly cared, and it was the only way she could show that she cared about my decision making.
Everything I've read suggests that the lying phase is a learning process for children. They did not previously understand that this existed and they want to test how it works. Even if they are HORRIBLE liars.

They will make up ridiculous fabricated stories about how something happened when it's obvious that they were directly responsible. It's not because they are bad or want to get away with it, but it's because they do not understand how lying works yet. For a good example, check out the movie "The Invention of Lying". It's pretty awesome.

Also: I plan to swear in front of my kids. Mostly because my wife is an incorrigible potty mouth and couldn't help it if she tried. The kids will learn that it's wrong and offensive and after copying it for a few years, probably stop doing it.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:36 PM   #82
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That's good to know, and she already seems to be stepping away from it after a few good talks. It seems like she will still try, and as you mentioned get pretty creative (what an imagination), when she knows the stakes are getting high.

Just another challenge with child-rearing I guess, and nothing innately wrong on her part.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:44 PM   #83
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Absolutely.

The first time they do something wrong, I explain to them exactly what they did wrong, why it is wrong, and what I expect them to do instead.

The second time they do something wrong, I make them explain to me exactly what they did wrong, why it was wrong, and what they should have done instead. Then I explain to them that they will get spanked next time they do it wrong.

The third time they do something wrong, I explain to them why I am upset, and that they will continue to be disciplined when they do what is wrong, and then I spank them.

The key is for you children to know with absolute certainty that if they are caught doing something wrong, they will be corrected every time. When they are allowed to push the limits, they will develop the mentality that discipline and authority does not apply to them.

I've never had to spank a child more than twice. After the second time, it's as if a mental siren/alarm goes off in their head when they receive "strike 2". They know what will absolutely happen when they get to "strike 3", and they'll put cognitive effort into making sure that doesn't happen. Children should be equally fearful of "strike 3" in public, I'm not above a spanking in a checkout line, and children can easily perceive that. With properly disciplined children, my experience is that a "look of disappointment" is enough to get them to think about what just happened 90% of the time.

This works well if you haven't spent years interacting with your children as a supplicating parent. If your children have been running all over you for 5 years, it will take a hell of a lot more than two "strike 3s" - just make sure that your changed approach is absolutely unwavering. If they get away with a "strike 3" just one time, the legitimacy of this style fails immediately and dramatically. My experience is with my nieces, 8, 6, and 5 years old. Their daddy is a little b!tch, their mom is stronger with them. When I visit for two weeks, mommy and daddy thank me for their relaxation, because I can have their children straightened up in 2-3 days. I subliminally discipline mommy and daddy too, but it doesn't work very well. My favorite method is to call them out for not listening to someone else. If mommy asks them to do something and they refuse, I'll give her one more chance to get them to comply. If they still refuse, I will stop the conversation with a vocally dominating "Excuse me?" or "Did you just tell your mother 'No'?", and they immediately realize "Oh snap, **** just got real". This is the best way that I know of to reinforce the fact that I'm not the only person they have to listen to.

I think an important part of this all is that I have their unwavering affection. To them, I'm their best friend in the whole wide world until they do something wrong. If I spanked one of them and they wanted to hug me while crying it off, I wouldn't be surprised for one second.
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:34 PM   #84
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has anyone on here actually struck a child? olderguy maybe?

I'm legitimately curious.
Yes. My son is 8 now. When he was around 3, he was told no (something trivial), and he lashed out at his mother. I smacked him with open palm across the back of the head. Not enough to do much more than startle him, but I let him know that that would not be tolerated. You have to establish absolute authority, and from that point it's easy.

I have never had to use anything more than a stern voice since then.

I firmly believe that the solution for good kids is a stay at home parent. You can't farm your kids out and expect them to be raised well.
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:58 PM   #85
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Some great posts in here and it seems like several of you are the types I was talking about saying "thanks" to above. I would also suggest you can apply most of your dog-training to child-rearing and vice-versa. It's mostly about patience and affection, but they must respect your dominance.
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:15 PM   #86
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:27 PM   #87
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problem 2 is that people think they can fix 10 years of bad parenting with a few whacks on the ***.

everyone in here who says parents need to discipline their kids: how about preventing the need for discipline in the first place? raise your kids in a safe, loving house and give them the best start in life. if you neglect them and don't provide them with a good childhood environment, you'll get a douchebag of a kid out of it.
maybe in a prefect world....the fact of the mater is though one may do their best to provide the above, kids will not always make the right choice and when they do make the wrong choice there has to be a consequence.

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be sensitive and be a mother and father. tell your kids you love them. provide for them. spoil them as babies so they develop strong emotional bonds to you. tough love damages a kid under 12 months old. it makes them antisocial and have anxiety problems that last forever.

don't be their drill sergeant.

I agree the responsibility is the parent's, but telling them to do something about it when the kid is 5 or 10 or 15 year old is like saying that changing the oil on your blown motor will fix it.
so what then? let them continue on the path without doing something about it? i understand not letting them become criminals in the first place but when they are on that path and while they are still young the parent needs to try and knock them back into the right path. no pun intended.
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:55 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by mgtmse01 View Post
maybe in a prefect world....the fact of the mater is though one may do their best to provide the above, kids will not always make the right choice and when they do make the wrong choice there has to be a consequence.
I'm not anti-punishment.

Explain to your kid what they did wrong. Tell them why it is bad. Get them to understand the issue. Telll them the punishment and ensure it will be consistently punished and establish consequence.


Quote:
so what then? let them continue on the path without doing something about it? i understand not letting them become criminals in the first place but when they are on that path and while they are still young the parent needs to try and knock them back into the right path. no pun intended.
shiiiiiiiiit, nobody can answer that. see if the guys down at the Juvy have any good ideas.

we have some friends with a messed up kid probably around 6 years old. they spend more than my annual salary on his therapy. who knows if it helps?
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:07 PM   #89
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It's certainly not easy. Life is frustrating, and kids compound that. People who were raised poorly can't handle life stress, much less the added stress factor of raising kids, and they get lazy.
+1
many parents today leave their kids in front of the tv and with video games instead of playing and interacting with them and teaching them. my time at home is limited because of work so i make the best of it. i spend as much time as possible with my 2 children. i take them on rides, go jogging and walking with them and i take them to the garage to help with working on the miata. i keep them busy measuring, getting tools, and i let them take things apart and put them back together.

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Just like anything else in life, the outcome and your enjoyment depend on the level of effort you are willing to put in. Unlike anything else in life your obligation to do well at this task is an absolute. I find it appalling how so many people can be responsible for shaping another person and fail so miserably.
+1

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I cringe when I see someone bat at a baby that can barely walk. The kid has no idea, he's copying everything around him, and now his sole providers have taken to shattering everything he knows with violence.
corporal punishment is never good for an infant, to me that is child abuse. however it can be effective if used at the right time for the right reasons and at the right age. of course that varies with each child. my children have received spankings in the past and its been a long time since they got one but under the right circumstances they are subject to another spanking if the need arises.
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:20 PM   #90
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I'm not anti-punishment.

Explain to your kid what they did wrong. Tell them why it is bad. Get them to understand the issue. Telll them the punishment and ensure it will be consistently punished and establish consequence.
we are on the same page then...your previous post did not convey that to me when i originally read it.

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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
shiiiiiiiiit, nobody can answer that. see if the guys down at the Juvy have any good ideas.

we have some friends with a messed up kid probably around 6 years old. they spend more than my annual salary on his therapy. who knows if it helps?
in my state, juvy is not very effective. there are some adults today that i used to chase back in the day when they were juvenile delinquents, juvy did not do them any good. i visited our juvenile facility during a training session. i was amazed at how restricted the "jailers" are. they can barely defend themselves, and let me tell you, some of these kids are fairly big and totally able to hurt an adult. plus, they have a complete disregard for others.

i hate your friends are having so much trouble. i think we can all agree good parenting is key but there are some cases where i have seen what seem to be good parents with bad kids and i have also seen some crappy parents with kids who turned out to be pretty good. we humans are very complicated.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:44 AM   #91
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Absolutely.

The first time they do something wrong, I explain to them exactly what they did wrong, why it is wrong, and what I expect them to do instead.

The second time they do something wrong, I make them explain to me exactly what they did wrong, why it was wrong, and what they should have done instead. Then I explain to them that they will get spanked next time they do it wrong.

The third time they do something wrong, I explain to them why I am upset, and that they will continue to be disciplined when they do what is wrong, and then I spank them.

The key is for you children to know with absolute certainty that if they are caught doing something wrong, they will be corrected every time. When they are allowed to push the limits, they will develop the mentality that discipline and authority does not apply to them
+1

I'd like to add that consistency is key. If it was wrong today, then it's still wrong tomorrow. Right and wrong are not dependent on our moods or irritability.

If spanking becomes necessary, never do it in anger. Calmly explain why this is happening. Make sure that they understand what they're in trouble for and why.

Above all, remind them that you love them, and that they are a good kid, but they made a bad decision.

Set a good example.
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:07 PM   #92
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+1

I'd like to add that consistency is key. If it was wrong today, then it's still wrong tomorrow. Right and wrong are not dependent on our moods or irritability.

If spanking becomes necessary, never do it in anger. Calmly explain why this is happening. Make sure that they understand what they're in trouble for and why.

Above all, remind them that you love them, and that they are a good kid, but they made a bad decision.

Set a good example.
this is a general curiosity question:

how does spanking enforce a punishment more than giving the punishment itself? it seems like redundant and unnecessary negative consequences.
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:35 PM   #93
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The fear of repeat pain and embarrassment is often enough
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:57 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
this is a general curiosity question:

how does spanking enforce a punishment more than giving the punishment itself? it seems like redundant and unnecessary negative consequences.
Typing with thumbs, so forgive any mistakes.

I'm not an expert, just using our experience with our boys. It's a simple escalation of consequences, verbal, time out, then spanking. 90% of the time verbal works, spanking is reserved for when their really pushing it, which is quite seldom. It works for our boys, they are very happy, and are well regarded by all adults that know them.

Also, there are 1,000's of positive reinforcements per one negative. Our house is one of love and happiness, not fear and dread.

Dr. Spock wrote a book in the 70's that started the anti spanking trend. He has since changed his veiwpoint.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:09 PM   #95
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The fear of repeat pain and embarrassment is often enough
x2

I'm thankful for every whoopin' I got.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:29 PM   #96
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Also, there is a HUGE difference between a spanking and a beating. Spanking causes minor pain, and is there as a reminder of authority. It is not a beatdown so your kids fear you.

If you leave marks, you deserve to be struck (repeatedly) by a baseball bat. With a nail in it.
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