Brain MS3X Idle 'Issues' (Idles at 3k)
04-17-2017, 01:30 PM
#81
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
I guess I can be the test dummy for this lol. Now if you have anyone else with this issue on MS you can let them know the outcome. I'll try it tonight and update the thread.
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 01:31 PM
#82
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 18,642
Total Cats: 1,866
1.5.1 installed on my car just fine last night....i still dont have an engine though.
Make sure your engine states are tuned well, thats what will dictate everything else.
Make sure your engine states are tuned well, thats what will dictate everything else.
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 01:46 PM
#84
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 18,642
Total Cats: 1,866
Megasquirt/TunerStudio "Tips and Tricks"
1.4.1 didnt have engine states. They are the backbone of the tune. Used for cl idle, idle ve, idle timing, overrun, etc.
Here is my best guess on how to tune engine states. Waiting on confirmation from Ken. And tuning them myself.
Fast acceleration threshold: Some low gear, step on the throttle. Pick the lowest(?) RPMdot while accelerating. Set the fast acceleration threshold just below that?
Slow acceleration threshold: Datalog idle and see what the highest RPMdot is during idle. Add and remove loads to get rpm changes. Set to just above the highest RPMdot at idle
Fast deceleration threshold: Rev high in neutral and let it drop back to idle. Set it slightly above the highest RPMdot from that test.
Slow deceleration threshold: Same as Slow acceleration threshold, but with negative RPMdot
TPS: Pretty self explanatory, value when tps is closed, and when full throttle
Overrun Map Threshold: Set as high as possible, I usually use a MAP value just under the lowest MAP I see on idle.
Here is my best guess on how to tune engine states. Waiting on confirmation from Ken. And tuning them myself.
Fast acceleration threshold: Some low gear, step on the throttle. Pick the lowest(?) RPMdot while accelerating. Set the fast acceleration threshold just below that?
Slow acceleration threshold: Datalog idle and see what the highest RPMdot is during idle. Add and remove loads to get rpm changes. Set to just above the highest RPMdot at idle
Fast deceleration threshold: Rev high in neutral and let it drop back to idle. Set it slightly above the highest RPMdot from that test.
Slow deceleration threshold: Same as Slow acceleration threshold, but with negative RPMdot
TPS: Pretty self explanatory, value when tps is closed, and when full throttle
Overrun Map Threshold: Set as high as possible, I usually use a MAP value just under the lowest MAP I see on idle.
Last edited by aidandj; 04-18-2017 at 10:59 AM.
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 01:58 PM
#85
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
I saw that post on MSExtra. Waiting to see their response as well to see how things work out.
I'm of two minds about this... I'm not sure I really want to deal with the additional complexity of all the above, but if you're right on that then it doesn't look like it's going to take too much fiddling to get the states to a level of basic functionality.
They still haven't approved my posts...
I'm of two minds about this... I'm not sure I really want to deal with the additional complexity of all the above, but if you're right on that then it doesn't look like it's going to take too much fiddling to get the states to a level of basic functionality.
They still haven't approved my posts...
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 05:28 PM
#87
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
Brain, have you played around with 1.5 at all?
Aidan, I've been reading up on engine state stuff a bit lately and have a question you may be able to answer. If the Throttle closed TPS sensor position is set (mine defaulted to 1%), it says that said position is used by closed loop idle. That might explain why getting off the throttle causes it to jump up and enter closed loop idle right? The VSS was also turned off, maybe that's what's doing it? Like, there's no speed threshold to stop it from jumping into closed loop idle based on the throttle input. I think the VSS setting would change that. I.e. I could tell it not to come back into closed loop idle till I drop below 5 mph. That seems like it might cause other issues, but it seems unlikely.
I think that's why you were able to see the weird closed loop idle activation in your screenshot.
Do you think the IAT valve values will have to be set in a more narrow configuration now? My range went from 25-75 when I tested it last night, but 75 was idling at like 3500 or so while 25 was idling at about 650. I'm trying to think of how to set this up so that CL idle activating at a low speed doesn't cause the engine to overrev past the desired point, i.e. I see no need for CL Idle to jump up to 3k when it's triggered. I'm trying to figure out how I'd get that to jump up to a more reasonable level. I wonder if that's supposed to be done by tweaking the valve setting by matching it to where you want the RPM to be.
Aidan, I've been reading up on engine state stuff a bit lately and have a question you may be able to answer. If the Throttle closed TPS sensor position is set (mine defaulted to 1%), it says that said position is used by closed loop idle. That might explain why getting off the throttle causes it to jump up and enter closed loop idle right? The VSS was also turned off, maybe that's what's doing it? Like, there's no speed threshold to stop it from jumping into closed loop idle based on the throttle input. I think the VSS setting would change that. I.e. I could tell it not to come back into closed loop idle till I drop below 5 mph. That seems like it might cause other issues, but it seems unlikely.
I think that's why you were able to see the weird closed loop idle activation in your screenshot.
Do you think the IAT valve values will have to be set in a more narrow configuration now? My range went from 25-75 when I tested it last night, but 75 was idling at like 3500 or so while 25 was idling at about 650. I'm trying to think of how to set this up so that CL idle activating at a low speed doesn't cause the engine to overrev past the desired point, i.e. I see no need for CL Idle to jump up to 3k when it's triggered. I'm trying to figure out how I'd get that to jump up to a more reasonable level. I wonder if that's supposed to be done by tweaking the valve setting by matching it to where you want the RPM to be.
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 05:31 PM
#88
Newb
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 36
Total Cats: -2
Brain, have you played around with 1.5 at all?
Aidan, I've been reading up on engine state stuff a bit lately and have a question you may be able to answer. If the Throttle closed TPS sensor position is set (mine defaulted to 1%), it says that said position is used by closed loop idle. That might explain why getting off the throttle causes it to jump up and enter closed loop idle right? The VSS was also turned off, maybe that's what's doing it? Like, there's no speed threshold to stop it from jumping into closed loop idle based on the throttle input. I think the VSS setting would change that. I.e. I could tell it not to come back into closed loop idle till I drop below 5 mph. That seems like it might cause other issues, but it seems unlikely.
I think that's why you were able to see the weird closed loop idle activation in your screenshot.
Do you think the IAT valve values will have to be set in a more narrow configuration now? My range went from 25-75 when I tested it last night, but 75 was idling at like 3500 or so while 25 was idling at about 650. I'm trying to think of how to set this up so that CL idle activating at a low speed doesn't cause the engine to overrev past the desired point, i.e. I see no need for CL Idle to jump up to 3k when it's triggered. I'm trying to figure out how I'd get that to jump up to a more reasonable level. I wonder if that's supposed to be done by tweaking the valve setting by matching it to where you want the RPM to be.
Aidan, I've been reading up on engine state stuff a bit lately and have a question you may be able to answer. If the Throttle closed TPS sensor position is set (mine defaulted to 1%), it says that said position is used by closed loop idle. That might explain why getting off the throttle causes it to jump up and enter closed loop idle right? The VSS was also turned off, maybe that's what's doing it? Like, there's no speed threshold to stop it from jumping into closed loop idle based on the throttle input. I think the VSS setting would change that. I.e. I could tell it not to come back into closed loop idle till I drop below 5 mph. That seems like it might cause other issues, but it seems unlikely.
I think that's why you were able to see the weird closed loop idle activation in your screenshot.
Do you think the IAT valve values will have to be set in a more narrow configuration now? My range went from 25-75 when I tested it last night, but 75 was idling at like 3500 or so while 25 was idling at about 650. I'm trying to think of how to set this up so that CL idle activating at a low speed doesn't cause the engine to overrev past the desired point, i.e. I see no need for CL Idle to jump up to 3k when it's triggered. I'm trying to figure out how I'd get that to jump up to a more reasonable level. I wonder if that's supposed to be done by tweaking the valve setting by matching it to where you want the RPM to be.
Bug fixes:
Correct ini scaling error on fuel pressure for bar and psi.
Fix an engine states issue interacting with idle where once you're in CL idle, you don't come out of it until the throttle is pressed.
Variable tacho gave wrong config error.
Fix for overrun fuel cut to respect the RPMDot-based RPM limits for turning fuel back on.
Fix "Communications Established" message popping up.
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 05:40 PM
#89
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
The issue I'm having is that it's going INTO CL Idle when I come off the throttle, not that it's coming out of CL Idle when the throttle is pressed.
Also, none of this explains the fuel pump priming lol.
Also, none of this explains the fuel pump priming lol.
Reply
0
0
04-17-2017, 06:16 PM
#90
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
So... Some on MSExtra responded saying it's the CL idle initial values table doing it.
So I opened it up and lo and behold... the values are in the high 60's which might be fine for most NB idle valves, but in mine that's close to 3k rpm. This is probably why the RPM was jumping like that. When it tries to go into CL-Idle, it found the valve value at the current RPM and that caused the rpms to surge because the valve blew open.
I'm just wondering how/why this wasn't an issue in previous versions. Did TPS not trigger entry into CL idle?
So I opened it up and lo and behold... the values are in the high 60's which might be fine for most NB idle valves, but in mine that's close to 3k rpm. This is probably why the RPM was jumping like that. When it tries to go into CL-Idle, it found the valve value at the current RPM and that caused the rpms to surge because the valve blew open.
I'm just wondering how/why this wasn't an issue in previous versions. Did TPS not trigger entry into CL idle?
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 02:36 AM
#91
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
Runs like a top.
Adjusted the VE idle tables to what I thought would work and it was pretty damn close. Just had to scale the entire thing up by 2-3 points because it would try to drop down too low before the 'normal' closed loop settings would take place. I set the VSS speed to like 5, so it doesn't kick on unless I'm going 5mph or less, which is nice because it doesn't make sense for something to try to idle when you get off the gas at 5k...
Drove the car around for an hour tonight running VEAL. There were a few iffy spots where things were incredibly lean, like high load in 2nd, that I need to figure out. I might just drive around taking logs when I do low gear/high load stuff and then try to adjust the tables in MLV afterwards. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it was pretty rad.
Now I just need to figure out how MLV works so I can get a baseline. The logs I have are huge and it won't accept the truncated ones. Oh well.
Only thing that happened that was strange was that the battery light would flash on and freak out for a couple of seconds when the rpms dipped down a bit. I'm guessing it's alternator related.
Andddd I need to figure out why the pump won't stop priming. Did it for a full 2 minutes today while I had the car sitting while I was upgrading firmware and then updating idle settings.
Adjusted the VE idle tables to what I thought would work and it was pretty damn close. Just had to scale the entire thing up by 2-3 points because it would try to drop down too low before the 'normal' closed loop settings would take place. I set the VSS speed to like 5, so it doesn't kick on unless I'm going 5mph or less, which is nice because it doesn't make sense for something to try to idle when you get off the gas at 5k...
Drove the car around for an hour tonight running VEAL. There were a few iffy spots where things were incredibly lean, like high load in 2nd, that I need to figure out. I might just drive around taking logs when I do low gear/high load stuff and then try to adjust the tables in MLV afterwards. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it was pretty rad.
Now I just need to figure out how MLV works so I can get a baseline. The logs I have are huge and it won't accept the truncated ones. Oh well.
Only thing that happened that was strange was that the battery light would flash on and freak out for a couple of seconds when the rpms dipped down a bit. I'm guessing it's alternator related.
Andddd I need to figure out why the pump won't stop priming. Did it for a full 2 minutes today while I had the car sitting while I was upgrading firmware and then updating idle settings.
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 06:49 AM
#92
Boost Czar
iTrader: (62)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 79,501
Total Cats: 4,080
dont use vss to initiate idle. im adamantly opposed to it.
it DOES make sense for the car to try to idle before youre at a stop. When you let off the car at 5K, coast, then drop into neutral, the car needs to be idling or it will stall.
it DOES make sense for the car to try to idle before youre at a stop. When you let off the car at 5K, coast, then drop into neutral, the car needs to be idling or it will stall.
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 09:36 AM
#93
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
Hmm. I didn't have that issue at all, but I also normally put the car into neutral before I'm stopped.
I'll turn it off and see how the behavior changes and how I need to change the idle valve table to compensate. I'm guessing I need to take logs around points where it's going to be trying to switch to the idle table so I can figure out load and match it to the idle valve to get a more seamless transition.
Have you had a chance to fiddle with the update yet?
I'll turn it off and see how the behavior changes and how I need to change the idle valve table to compensate. I'm guessing I need to take logs around points where it's going to be trying to switch to the idle table so I can figure out load and match it to the idle valve to get a more seamless transition.
Have you had a chance to fiddle with the update yet?
Last edited by ridethecliche; 04-18-2017 at 09:48 AM.
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 09:53 AM
#95
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
Have you played with vss at all? I actually used your old idle table as a baseline and modified it to where I thought my car would like it then modified it after driving for a bit after the car threatened to stall.
One of the benefits I saw of turning on VSS was that I wasn't getting the battery light flashing at me when I slowed down. I have a feeling that this was nb alternator related.
Also, I'm not overlooking a TS setting for the fuel pump priming am I?
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 10:41 AM
#97
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
Have you seen anything in this firmware that makes you think it's the bees knees relative to 1.4?
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 10:46 AM
#99
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: New Fucking Jersey
Posts: 3,890
Total Cats: 143
Of course you do ya nerd! I think this will be helpful once I get it figured out and I'm seemingly not that far off. It definitely adds some complexity to matters though!
Also, say you're coasting in gear or in neutral and you have VSS on. Mine was set to 5mph. Wouldn't it automatically swap to closed loop idle below that speed whether it was in gear or not? If it's in gear, then the second I give it gas, it'll back off of idle, and if I'm coasting and switch to neutral, then it's already in idle right? Or am I misunderstanding this.
Also, say you're coasting in gear or in neutral and you have VSS on. Mine was set to 5mph. Wouldn't it automatically swap to closed loop idle below that speed whether it was in gear or not? If it's in gear, then the second I give it gas, it'll back off of idle, and if I'm coasting and switch to neutral, then it's already in idle right? Or am I misunderstanding this.
Reply
0
0
04-18-2017, 10:56 AM
#100
Boost Czar
iTrader: (62)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 79,501
Total Cats: 4,080
i guess since they look at mapdot now, it's fine. we were running into all sorts of issues when they just added vss into the CL idle activation -- mostly high gear, low load cruising.
Reply
0
0
