Dyno Tuning, Take a Look FM we want your timingz
04-03-2008, 08:35 PM
#81
If you access the secret dialog box in MegaTune, and type in "produce me the shittiest, most conservative timing map possible" you will magically get what I run.
Seriously, though, I think there's something more than just my bad gas going on here. My car used to ping on the stock ECU pre-turbo with 15 degrees of advance and 91 octane, so I am going to check whether my pulley is seriously off the mark or something. After looking at all these maps, the 2 octane points shouldn't make that big of a difference.
By the way, I still detonate every so often on that map.
Seriously, though, I think there's something more than just my bad gas going on here. My car used to ping on the stock ECU pre-turbo with 15 degrees of advance and 91 octane, so I am going to check whether my pulley is seriously off the mark or something. After looking at all these maps, the 2 octane points shouldn't make that big of a difference.
By the way, I still detonate every so often on that map.
If you are pinging there is definitely something else going on that is not right!!
I would try/check:
Did you set base timing at 10*?
Set up a CAI.
cold spark plugs
different fuel
Check for carbon build up in combustion chamber.
Tony
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04-03-2008, 09:26 PM
#82
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This is my sparkmap, and it will be the 2nd and final time I post it. This is the result of careful tuning on a load based dyno by competent personnel. It's specific to my car, my mods, and my local fuel. It's also aggressive as ****, and is the key to why my car makes so much power. I whole heartedly do not like sharing maps because I'm afraid of what a 
will do with it. Use extreme caution!!! Don't blow your **** up. This map is shown for informative and comparative purposes only. I'm also running a tad bit rich under boost.
will do with it. Use extreme caution!!! Don't blow your **** up. This map is shown for informative and comparative purposes only. I'm also running a tad bit rich under boost.
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04-03-2008, 09:34 PM
#83
Sorry for my incompetence in not remembering what your ignition table looked like. It's definitely interesting though, i'm currently running a little more advance in boost than you, though I have a little lower compression motor with the wisecos. You are running more advance in boost though. It's going to be interesting to see what Jerry can do with my car once it's all put together.
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04-03-2008, 11:17 PM
#85
Not sure what you guys think of this, but it might be a pretty sweet thing to have all updated maps, in a sticky. I can totally understand some guys here being really hesitant posting they're info due to concerns..
But if you pros can come up with what you guys think are more current (agressive) maps, while still being tame (safe), I think it'd do alot for everyone using/considering running MS.
Of course a nice lil disclaimer would be needed, and you guys may not feel like doing it, but from what it looks like a small circle of you guys could help give a BIG circle of noob's a real nice start out of the box...or at least catch them up a little
Imagine what kind of potential this would have...less confusion, more people coming aboard, and some fun out of the box... I think it'd lead to alot of great things, and if nothing more alot less totally confused noob's askign the same question and trying to find that "Holy Grail".....that being a tune that allows them to enjoy their car, even tho there's more work ahead...call it motivation, or confidence booster...
I know there's too many variables to have perfect maps for anyone/everyone, but it also seems possible to get pretty close...And it's not being lazy, it's that learning curves are different for everyone...not to mention that starting from scratch is a pretty complex thing....
Give something that can be used & enjoyed WHILE fine tuning, and you'll see alot more people willign to fine tune, and figure stuff out knowing they have something that gets it done for now...I know its not ur responsability, but imagine what a huge contribution this would be to the forum, and miata community....then imagine all those people giving back to others, etc etc...
Sorry so long...so what u guys think?
PS--great thread nonetheless, once I sort out all the info! lol
But if you pros can come up with what you guys think are more current (agressive) maps, while still being tame (safe), I think it'd do alot for everyone using/considering running MS.
Of course a nice lil disclaimer would be needed, and you guys may not feel like doing it, but from what it looks like a small circle of you guys could help give a BIG circle of noob's a real nice start out of the box...or at least catch them up a little
Imagine what kind of potential this would have...less confusion, more people coming aboard, and some fun out of the box... I think it'd lead to alot of great things, and if nothing more alot less totally confused noob's askign the same question and trying to find that "Holy Grail".....that being a tune that allows them to enjoy their car, even tho there's more work ahead...call it motivation, or confidence booster...
I know there's too many variables to have perfect maps for anyone/everyone, but it also seems possible to get pretty close...And it's not being lazy, it's that learning curves are different for everyone...not to mention that starting from scratch is a pretty complex thing....
Give something that can be used & enjoyed WHILE fine tuning, and you'll see alot more people willign to fine tune, and figure stuff out knowing they have something that gets it done for now...I know its not ur responsability, but imagine what a huge contribution this would be to the forum, and miata community....then imagine all those people giving back to others, etc etc...
Sorry so long...so what u guys think?
PS--great thread nonetheless, once I sort out all the info! lol
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04-04-2008, 01:26 PM
#86
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I brought my laptop to work today to check out my timing map because my new setup seems a lot more...slow...than it should be. I was hoping the source of the slowness was my timing was not as advanced as Y8S' or Ben's. But it turns out I have a lot more timing (5-10 degrees) at lower rpms/mid boost than Y8S, and similar timing at upper RPMs/upper boost. For example, at 4500rpm/8psi (around where my car feels sluggish), I am at 24 degrees, matt is at 19. At 4000rpm there's a 7 degree difference, and at 3500rpm there's a 10degree difference. I do not detonate. I was under the impression that the miata engine will detonate before you start to lose power/torque due to excessive timing. Is this not true?
I have the various parameters set in the AEM EMS to ensure the timing is accurate throughout the RPM range (one of the first things you should set/verify but I find most don't).
Meanwhile I thought all this time my timing map was conservative! I do know, at least with the old setup, that adding a degree or two didn't change my dyno numbers at all. I figured it was the inefficient turbos and intercooler on that old setup. In fact the attached table is about 1.5 degrees retarded from the last time I dynoed. AND my IACs were very high with the old setup.
I have a higher resolution image of the ignition map if anyone wants it.
I have the various parameters set in the AEM EMS to ensure the timing is accurate throughout the RPM range (one of the first things you should set/verify but I find most don't).
Meanwhile I thought all this time my timing map was conservative! I do know, at least with the old setup, that adding a degree or two didn't change my dyno numbers at all. I figured it was the inefficient turbos and intercooler on that old setup. In fact the attached table is about 1.5 degrees retarded from the last time I dynoed. AND my IACs were very high with the old setup.
I have a higher resolution image of the ignition map if anyone wants it.
Last edited by TurboTim; 04-04-2008 at 01:44 PM.
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04-04-2008, 01:37 PM
#87
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my higher compression ratio essentially moves everything down by 3 psi (my 10 psi on 10:1 is about your 13 psi on 9:1). I'd be game to run more timing if it doesn't detonate.
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04-04-2008, 02:07 PM
#88
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So I tried out Ben's timing map this morning on the way to work. I am not just going for max power but I also want efficiency at cruise since this car is my daily driver and most of my drive is at 50-75 mph at steady speeds.
I noticed that this timing map seems to produce more vacuum (like 15-20 kpa less MAP) at cruise than the 'hybrid' map I tried before. MAP was also a lot steadier over hills and over passes (varying load). Cruise for me is in the 3300-4300 RPM/30-70 KPa MAP range. IIRC higher vacuum (lower MAP) means better cruise efficiency. Makes sense since lower MAP means lower engine loads.
What is interesting is Ben's timing map has a bit less advance in the cruise area than the hybrid map. My AFR is about 15-16.5:1 in cruise according to my LC-1 WBO2 (very recently recalibrated).
So I need to do some research, but it seems with a given lean AFR in cruise, that the best timing is the one that produces the lowest MAP at a given engine speed and a given load (like flat terrain). It is not necessarily the one that produces the most advance just before detonation?
By the way thanks to all who are sharing their maps, especially the dyno tuned ones. Though I understand they are unique to your particular setup, it has been interesting comparing them and trying them out. I think I am going to try Ben's for a few days and see how it does.
EDIT: Hold on... Tuning for max vacuum might not be correct according to some info I have from a very good source.
I noticed that this timing map seems to produce more vacuum (like 15-20 kpa less MAP) at cruise than the 'hybrid' map I tried before. MAP was also a lot steadier over hills and over passes (varying load). Cruise for me is in the 3300-4300 RPM/30-70 KPa MAP range. IIRC higher vacuum (lower MAP) means better cruise efficiency. Makes sense since lower MAP means lower engine loads.
What is interesting is Ben's timing map has a bit less advance in the cruise area than the hybrid map. My AFR is about 15-16.5:1 in cruise according to my LC-1 WBO2 (very recently recalibrated).
So I need to do some research, but it seems with a given lean AFR in cruise, that the best timing is the one that produces the lowest MAP at a given engine speed and a given load (like flat terrain). It is not necessarily the one that produces the most advance just before detonation?
By the way thanks to all who are sharing their maps, especially the dyno tuned ones. Though I understand they are unique to your particular setup, it has been interesting comparing them and trying them out. I think I am going to try Ben's for a few days and see how it does.
EDIT: Hold on... Tuning for max vacuum might not be correct according to some info I have from a very good source.
Last edited by ZX-Tex; 04-04-2008 at 06:05 PM.
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04-04-2008, 05:37 PM
#92
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No, Jerry Hoffmann himself did.
22" intercooler core length, my MATs are very nice, like 80 degrees in boost nice. 12-17 degree delta.
2 steps colder than stock right now. BKR7Es in a 1.8.
It doesn't ping on race-gas, and I have played with different filling stations. I filled the car at Chevron before I came down to SLO and it was pretty good on the trip down. Discount gas, bam, big detonation. I usually fill up at Shell. I use to feel a little jipped when I would fill the entire tank with 100 octane at racetracks; now I know I've gotten my money's worth out of every drop of 100 I've ever put into this car.
Got a good way to do this? Pulling the head is not an option, the Miata is my only car at school and if I **** it up the tow bill will bankrupt me. I have limited tools (basically enough to re-attach intercooler pipes and a hammer for good measure)
Thanks for the suggestions.
22" intercooler core length, my MATs are very nice, like 80 degrees in boost nice. 12-17 degree delta.
2 steps colder than stock right now. BKR7Es in a 1.8.
It doesn't ping on race-gas, and I have played with different filling stations. I filled the car at Chevron before I came down to SLO and it was pretty good on the trip down. Discount gas, bam, big detonation. I usually fill up at Shell. I use to feel a little jipped when I would fill the entire tank with 100 octane at racetracks; now I know I've gotten my money's worth out of every drop of 100 I've ever put into this car.
Got a good way to do this? Pulling the head is not an option, the Miata is my only car at school and if I **** it up the tow bill will bankrupt me. I have limited tools (basically enough to re-attach intercooler pipes and a hammer for good measure)
Thanks for the suggestions.
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04-04-2008, 06:13 PM
#95
One of the biggest changes you can make to a turbo car to lower IATs is to setup a Cold Air Intake system. If you are sucking up hot air from under the hood, you are giving up a lot in terms of power and detonation control. It doesn't matter how big or efficient the intercooler is...I can't stress it enough, if you don't have cold air system you are shorting yourself!
As far as removing carbon deposits, there are a few options:
1--Hook up the smallest inside diameter vacuum hose you can get a hold off to one of the intake manifold nipples closest to the throttle body (one that is not too close to one individual cylinder runner). With the engine at operating temp, rev it up to a few thousand RPMs and dip the hose into a container with water. They key is keeping the water flow to a mininum and the RPMs at the 3K/4K range. Run about 16oz of water through the system, it will take you s few minutes if you do it right...don't let the engine bog down with the water...reduce water amount/raise RPMs if this happens.
You have to be careful, because if too much water goes in, you can hydro-lock the engine. Disclaimer: Use at you own discretion. Or take it to someone who has experience with this type of technique.
2--Go to a Chevy or GM dealer and buy "Top Engine Cleaner". Warm up the engine to Normal operating temp. Pull out the spark plugs and pour in the about two or three ounces per cylinder. Leave over night. The next day, disconnect the CAS. Put some rags over the spark plug holes and turn the engine over to blow out the remaining Top Engine Cleaner. Change the engine oil, as some of the cleaner worked it's way into the crankcase. Run the remaining cleaner through the engine as in 1.
3---Use automatic transmission fluid in place of the "Top Engine Cleaner" above.
Good luck,
Tony
As far as removing carbon deposits, there are a few options:
1--Hook up the smallest inside diameter vacuum hose you can get a hold off to one of the intake manifold nipples closest to the throttle body (one that is not too close to one individual cylinder runner). With the engine at operating temp, rev it up to a few thousand RPMs and dip the hose into a container with water. They key is keeping the water flow to a mininum and the RPMs at the 3K/4K range. Run about 16oz of water through the system, it will take you s few minutes if you do it right...don't let the engine bog down with the water...reduce water amount/raise RPMs if this happens.
You have to be careful, because if too much water goes in, you can hydro-lock the engine. Disclaimer: Use at you own discretion. Or take it to someone who has experience with this type of technique.
2--Go to a Chevy or GM dealer and buy "Top Engine Cleaner". Warm up the engine to Normal operating temp. Pull out the spark plugs and pour in the about two or three ounces per cylinder. Leave over night. The next day, disconnect the CAS. Put some rags over the spark plug holes and turn the engine over to blow out the remaining Top Engine Cleaner. Change the engine oil, as some of the cleaner worked it's way into the crankcase. Run the remaining cleaner through the engine as in 1.
3---Use automatic transmission fluid in place of the "Top Engine Cleaner" above.
Good luck,
Tony
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04-04-2008, 06:42 PM
#96
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I got tired of all this talking and took action.
I loaded Paul's table and went for a drive.
First thing, the IDLE is WAYYYYYYY better.
Second, it seems to pull smoother.
Third, it's 70* today and I'm wondering if warmer weather is gonna mean I need to turn up my EBC numbers. You can see in the log that I spike to about 13.7psi initially and steadily lose boost until it's at about 10.8psi at 6k RPM and dropping. On the dyno I spiked to 14.5psi and settled to 12.5psi.
Since I don't think spark has any direct significant impact on boost, the only other factor should be air. My hi-boost dyno pulls show the same +/-105* IAT as my pulls today so I'm stumped there. Why is my boost significantly lower on the street today?
And I put the damn .1uf thing on the J8/GND and it's still all f'ed up between 3500-4500!!! Note that the RPM curve is perfectly smooth, and the cels I transition through are very smooth and linear. I would see my way to parting with a bottle of decent Rum for anybody who can fix this for me.
I loaded Paul's table and went for a drive.
First thing, the IDLE is WAYYYYYYY better.
Second, it seems to pull smoother.
Third, it's 70* today and I'm wondering if warmer weather is gonna mean I need to turn up my EBC numbers. You can see in the log that I spike to about 13.7psi initially and steadily lose boost until it's at about 10.8psi at 6k RPM and dropping. On the dyno I spiked to 14.5psi and settled to 12.5psi.
Since I don't think spark has any direct significant impact on boost, the only other factor should be air. My hi-boost dyno pulls show the same +/-105* IAT as my pulls today so I'm stumped there. Why is my boost significantly lower on the street today?
And I put the damn .1uf thing on the J8/GND and it's still all f'ed up between 3500-4500!!! Note that the RPM curve is perfectly smooth, and the cels I transition through are very smooth and linear. I would see my way to parting with a bottle of decent Rum for anybody who can fix this for me.
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