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Old 01-24-2012, 11:16 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ke0ki2k View Post
Joshua, when you said evaluation, did you mean submit the proposed build and see what he says about the swap... or build the car and then send him the dyno/weight/etc? I really just want to figure out what to build before I build it, know what I mean?
Download the rulebook and read through it - it's pretty clear on what you need to send in when you are dyno reclassing.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:32 AM   #22
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Before spending all the effort in building the car, I would ask Greg what power you can make with the proposed engine swap. .
I just sent him an email, we'll see what he says. If I were to keep the OEM engine in the 99' chassis and build it to the maximum points, would I be able to pretty well max the W/P without Greg sending me to TTC?

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Download the rulebook and read through it - it's pretty clear on what you need to send in when you are dyno reclassing.
Problem is this is all pre-build, and I don't want to build a car up and figure out later that I classed myself out of TTD/into TTC and need more money for Hoosiers to compete. Trying to figure out roughly where I need to start before I start turning wrenches.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:36 AM   #23
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I just sent him an email, we'll see what he says. If I were to keep the OEM engine in the 99' chassis and build it to the maximum points, would I be able to pretty well max the W/P without Greg sending me to TTC?
I figure so, you wouldn't really need a dyno-reclass then and could go by points and the w/p ratio.

I think hustler stirred the pot about reclassing miatas on the NASA forums, I don't remember the details though, lol.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:39 PM   #24
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I was hoping to throw an 01' longblock into the 99' though, use the VVT to hold ~160 whp from ASAP to redline and stay just above the 14.25 p/w for most of the powerband.. so what you're saying is he'll likely re-class me to TTC if I flirt with that max power/weight like that with a updated engine swap?
In my experience no dyno reclassed miata will ever be near the power/weight limit for whatever class you're in. With your proposed engine you might end up with a TTD* or TTD** base class, and you won't be able to stay in D once you add points for susp, diff, etc. From what I've read, everyone on here who's gotten a dyno reclass for their miata in TT/PT are shy of the P/W for their final classing. Emilio's cars might be the exception, but they are also exceptionally well built.

Being at or near the max P/W is ideal, but it's not always 100% necessary to be competitive. We have one of the fastest PTB cars (not a miata) in the country (1st in PTB @ 2010 Nationals, 3rd last year) and we're over a full point off of the P/W limit. Now, if the PTB fields were deeper with more cars built specifically to be "B" cars, we probably wouldn't be as competitive...

Cliff Notes: If you plan on running a miata in PT or TT, don't expect to be near the max P/W for the class you want to run in. The miata is too good at everything else to have the same P/W as other cars in class...at least according to the powers at be in NASA.

Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 01-24-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: add some bold
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:53 PM   #25
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How many miatas were registered for the 25 Hour? What percentage of the field in each class were miatas and what percentage of each podium were miatas?
although there are 6 classes at T25. but ES is really a class with unlimited rule, that GT3 Cup car dominate in. ESR is for Radical only.

so there are only 4 classes that a Miata/MX-5 can compete in. Miata/MX-5 took 10 of 12 possible podium spots. Miata/MX-5 do not make up more than say 25% of the field.

so you guys need to stop whining........ before Greg up the Miata tax even more.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 01-24-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:08 PM   #26
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There is no need to copy either Crusher or Enzo. They were built for 25 hours with emphasis on reliability, mileage, durability and ease of repair in mind. for example, They ran Wilwood big brake, for ease of pad change and longer brake pad life. took 2 points for that. if it were for sprint race, would of stayed with stock brakes to save the 2 points.

Crusher and Enzo are not optimized TTD/PTD cars.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 01-24-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:54 PM   #27
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Efini~FC3S,

Appendix A "adjusted" power to weight ratio, the source of the "Miata tax" as I call it. Rwd = more weight, 2dr coupe = more weight. Crusher and Enzo were nowhere near 12.00:1 and no lightweight rwd coupe will ever be either.

A fwd 4dr PTC car must still be > 12.00:1, thus a rwd 2dr car will not be, otherwise the rwd 2dr car would have an unfair advantage. It's more that just reading the rules, it's understanding the letter and spirit

Using appendix A, Miatas come up with a lower, but still slightly more generous figure than Greg gives us. IOW, he's using appendix A as a guideline and adding a mix of voodoo/results forensics to arrive at a final lbs/hp for us.

Miatas kicked *** at T25 and hold their own in PT/TT. This is partly because they are short, light and rwd, despite being hobbled in lbs/hp. The rules acknowledge the advantage and account for it. Simple.

The guys protesting the loudest here and on other forums about the NASA Miata tax are not optimized for the points they are taking and are in some cases, being out driven. I hope NASA leaves the Miata alone because as long as they do, we have a good shot at several more WERC and PT titles and of course, T25 wins.

Last edited by emilio700; 01-24-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:44 PM   #28
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Thanks for all the replies guys, I feel about 10x more knowledgeable/prepared than I was 24 hours ago! Nice to see a helpful forum (not just flamers telling you to read the rulebook cover-to-cover and figure it out yourself)
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #29
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(not just flamers telling you to read the rulebook cover-to-cover and figure it out yourself)
Not to be a flamer, but if you aren't reading the rulebook cover to cover, you aren't going to be competitive
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
although there are 6 classes at T25. but ES is really a class with unlimited rule, that GT3 Cup car dominate in. ESR is for Radical only.

so there are only 4 classes that a Miata/MX-5 can compete in. Miata/MX-5 took 10 of 12 possible podium spots. Miata/MX-5 do not make up more than say 25% of the field.

so you guys need to stop whining........ before Greg up the Miata tax even more.
Maybe the results on MyLaps are wrong, but what I see is miatas in 9 of the 12 possible podiums. E2 and E3 were all miatas. E1 was Miata, Miata, Scion. E0 was Miata, M3, M3?? Anyway, six of one, half dozen of the other.

According to my quick check (which is probably off by a car or two) Miatas made up ~36% of the field in E0, E1, E2, and E3. Taking E0 out of the mix, Miatas made up over 42% of the field in E1, E2 and E3.

I'm not complaining, and I have nothing against the Miata. I'm just not that surprised that miatas do so well year after year in the 25 hour (or any racing for that matter). Miatas are reliable, easy to work on, cheap, abundant, fun to drive, etc. etc. etc. There's good reason why so many people run them and there is good reason why they are successful in motorsports. It is a bit of a numbers game though, when ~40% of the field is one car, that car is bound to get some podiums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio
I hope NASA leaves the Miata alone because as long as they do, we have a good shot at several more WERC and PT titles and of course, T25 wins.
I agree, I also hope they leave the miata alone. I think the changes they made after the 2010 (2009?) season were a bit unjustified, but oh well.

Also, thanks for explaining Appendix A. Now armed with that knowledge maybe we can add a couple more Performance Touring championships to our belts...
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:03 PM   #31
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Not to be a flamer, but if you aren't reading the rulebook cover to cover, you aren't going to be competitive
hahaha..... ownt



Oh man, I need a bigger wallet.


Edit: If this wasn't across the country - https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...695#post825695
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:13 PM   #32
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IMO, tires give you the most bang for the buck for the points. I'd run Hoosiers and then mod from there. 205 R6 (+10 -7 = +3), XIDA-S suspension (+3, +2), front anti-sway bar (+2), and LSD (+3) puts you at +13, so you have 6 more points to play with. Go for the A6s, and/or spend some points on engine mods.

I'm also curious about a TTF NB2 build by running 205 street tires on an otherwise stock car. You'd have to limit power to 122rwhp at 2400lbs to meet the W/P requirement for TTF.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #33
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TSE & 949 on the east-coast..... please?


I think I'm going with the "build the frog, deal with the warts" approach. My Solo 2 class will be all messed up, but thankfully the local region has a fun catch-all class I can run. Still shooting for TTD in my 94, though.

I'm anxious to get on the track, competing, but it'll be a minute for me. Too many other bills right now! I'll be helping James out so we can work out all the expensive bugs with his car :-D
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:25 PM   #34
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IMO, tires give you the most bang for the buck for the points.
+1. The NASA ruleset seems to lend itself to sticky tires and low weight, and not to horsepower.

I glanced at running ST2 in Theseus last year - if I wanted to run 245/580 R80 Hoosiers, I was only allowed 232whp, but if I ran 225/45-15 NT-01s I could have a whopping 262whp. Between those two options, I figure the extra 30whp is worth maybe a second a lap, whereas the tires would have been worth 2+ seconds.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:41 AM   #35
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One important thing to add.
You win free Hoosier tires in TT and PT. so Hoosier is a good choice.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:41 AM   #36
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While were on the topic of Hoosier. What compound would be the best choice, A6, R6, R75, R80, R100? My first thought is to run R6, longer life and a good amount of grip, but it also depends on how many points you have to play with as well. I'm guessing Nitto doesn't have the same contingency as Hoosier? :( $242 for 225/45/15 R6s, I'd hope they would last a whole "season".
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:17 AM   #37
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A6s are +13, R6s are +10. A6s don't last long. R75, R80 and R100 are +30 points, which basically means there not allowed in TTA-TTF.

So yes, R6s are what you want. If you break them in right and rotate them they can last a decent amount of time, probably not a whole year though. If you are competitive, you are winning ~2 tires a weekend and you are using up ~2 tires a weekend. One of my friends won the PTE National Championship a couple years ago on Hoosiers. He bought one set at the beginning of the year and then was able to win enough races throughout the year that he didn't have to buy any other tires.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:49 AM   #38
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A6s are +13, R6s are +10. A6s don't last long. R75, R80 and R100 are +30 points, which basically means there not allowed in TTA-TTF.

So yes, R6s are what you want. If you break them in right and rotate them they can last a decent amount of time, probably not a whole year though. If you are competitive, you are winning ~2 tires a weekend and you are using up ~2 tires a weekend. One of my friends won the PTE National Championship a couple years ago on Hoosiers. He bought one set at the beginning of the year and then was able to win enough races throughout the year that he didn't have to buy any other tires.
Lol, I didn't even read the points for slicks, oops. I literally lol'd after reading the +30, makes sense though.

Buying one set and winning contingencies every event would be ideal, but who knows if there's enough competitors at each event for the contingency to be valid or if someone doesn't bring out some bat-****-crazy prepped car, lol.
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Old 01-25-2012, 02:52 PM   #39
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Hrmm, $11k for this seems a little steep. http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=440471

Would $6-$8k be too much of a low-ball for a car like that? I think for $10k the trailer, wheels, and nt01s should be included.
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:13 PM   #40
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I would start with an 01 Miata with VVT and build the motor over the max hp then retune using the VVT to get the most under the curve while just at max whp. I would also run the largest tire I could. Can you get away with running a 245 hoosier r80, open diff, xida, and factory sway bars?
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