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Old 08-02-2013, 12:59 PM   #61
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1. I believe that Quinn on cr.net decked his .060" and is using 10mm lift Maruha cams and isn't having any issues. However I think he's locked out the VVT with an adjustable cam gear.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Yeah, you have mentioned that before. But the feel, weight, increased longevity makes +2 I'm OK with.

2 related questions.
1. Any idea how much you could deck the stock VVT head, if keeping the stock cams?
2. How many useful heat cycles can I expect out of a set of R6s?
a. Would 225/45 R6s be worth the extra 6 points over 205s?
1. .060
2.
a) 4 at full speed, or about 1hr, whichever comes first. Then a gradual drop off of about 1s. They'll last 3-4hrs at sprint pace from sticker to cord in one continuous run.

b). Depends on a variety of factors. Hallett is mid to low speed, mechanical grip at a premium. Increased rolling drag less of a concern. You decide.

You're asking questions about fine tuning the build for D then ignoring the recommendation to leave the BBK off. You have to pause and ask yourself what your goals really are. They are not to be as competitive as possible. say that to yourself. It sounds like its more about having a car that's fun to drive. Sorry to be blunt be around our shop, we take our PT builds rather seriously, no fluff.

I suggest building it for C or B and you know, getting all of it.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #63
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Sorry to be blunt be around our shop, we take our PT builds rather seriously, no fluff.

I suggest building it for C or B and you know, getting all of it.
I prefer blunt to bullsh!t.

That's not a terrible idea either. Although TTC and staying N/A doesn't seem like successful recipe.

You're right I'm wanting to build a car that's fun to drive, reliable, but would also have a decent place to go compete occasionally. You could be right in that I need to completely rethink my path.

I'll be ready to order my XIDA's next week, so I may just give you a call?
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:02 PM   #64
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Savington and I had discussed chassis bracing in another thread (and I know that for sake of TTE/TTD it seems to be a bad use of points), but I thought I would go ahead and post the response from Greg regarding chassis bracing and points. Savington was correct, but I wanted to double check with Greg to be on the safe side.

Essentially, I asked if since my car has the FM Butterfly brace for a +3, does that then cover all other chassis bracing under rule F. 4). For example, Frog Arms, RB Lower Control Arm Brace, FM Cannon Brace.

His response:

I think that you are correct. The only potential issue that I see is that the R.B. Lower Control Arm Brace has two attachment points, and this is one of the rules:
2) Add front lower stress/arm brace (two attachment points maximum) +1

So, if the car has a lower arm brace with two attachment points, it would be a +1 point assessment normally.

However, it would seem that this rule:
4) Add or modify other chassis stiffening devices or fabricated parts (such as lower strut braces
or lower arm braces (with greater than two attachment points), sub-frame connectors,
sub-frame braces, sub-frame mounts/bushings, etc) +3

...would supersede rule 2 since it allows lower arm braces with more than two attachment points under the +3 points. So, "theoretically", you could attach a piece of 18g wire from the brace to any point on the arms, and it would now have more than two attachment points and apparently qualify under the +3 points. Since that is ridiculous to do, I think that you would be covered under #4 for all of the parts you showed. What this rule does not cover would be the items in #3, and items in the cage section.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:05 PM   #65
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..Although TTC and staying N/A doesn't seem like successful recipe.
Um, I might have to disagree there.

Regarding the braces, I'd protest you and I'm pretty sure I would win. In my experience, you have to be within the letter and spirit of the rules. If only the letter, you slide for one event then Greg rewrites the rules or specifically bans your mod. In my view, the braces you propose are legal neither in spirit nor letter.

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Old 08-02-2013, 06:43 PM   #66
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EDIT: Saw you respond to the braces, curious why you disagree with Greg. And, if you think they are wasted points, why would you lodge a protest? Just curious. I really am I'm trying to determine the best route to go to start with vs buying parts, pulling off selling unnecessary stuff, etc. (My car only has the butterfly brace and frog arms at present)

Great vid!

Since we are talking about TT/PTD in this thread, I'll keep TTC out of it. Except:
1. 6spd?
2. BBK?

I'm sure it depends on what base class you shoot for to determine how many points you have left.

I'll shoot you an email once I order the XIDAs. Again thanks for the input!
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:17 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
EDIT: Saw you respond to the braces, curious why you disagree with Greg. And, if you think they are wasted points, why would you lodge a protest? Just curious. I really am I'm trying to determine the best route to go to start with vs buying parts, pulling off selling unnecessary stuff, etc. (My car only has the butterfly brace and frog arms at present)

Great vid!

Since we are talking about TT/PTD in this thread, I'll keep TTC out of it. Except:
1. 6spd?
2. BBK?

I'm sure it depends on what base class you shoot for to determine how many points you have left.

I'll shoot you an email once I order the XIDAs. Again thanks for the input!
6 spd & BBK on Crusher for Nationals but it didn't need the BBK. Just leftover enduro hardware. The way that cars was classed for 2012 nats is no longer possible. I drove a car through a loophole to two national championships and they promptly closed it. Had extra points in 2012, don't now. So the answer remains the same, if it's a sprint or TT car in E, D or C, I think a BBK is superflous. Just deal with the spongier pedal and uneven pad wear in order to put those points somewhere where they'll have a greater effect on lap time. Or don't, you know, whatever

Braces: Greg doesn't always know everything about a car until a more knowledgeable NASA racer explains it. There are several NASA sprint, TT and enduro rules changes that are a direct result of either some loophole we found, innovative hardware, or suspicion we had about other competitors. Andrew and I both understand the rules well enough to know that the braces you propose will not make the car faster or feel significantly different and would get you popped if you were racing against us. But if you don't really care what we write here and want to keep hashing it out, knock yourself out man. BTW, if the car is running PTD, it'll have a cage which will do more for the chassis stiffness than the braces you mentioned.

No offense but I'm out WRT this subject. You have already made up your mind what you want to do, so do it. I will not reinforce your rationalizations to keep the unnecessary bits unless you paypal me like $20.
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:31 PM   #68
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Nope, don't take it that way! I'm listening to all of your advice, really.

Now I'm just wishing I hadn't tossed 1.6 hardware (I assumed I'd never use it again), thankfully it shouldn't be too hard to get some more. Looks like I'll also have some other stuff to yank off the car to put toward the build as well.

Not going PT yet. I'll have to wait until I've got a truck/trailer before I make it a full blown race car.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:28 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Nope, don't take it that way! I'm listening to all of your advice, really.

Now I'm just wishing I hadn't tossed 1.6 hardware (I assumed I'd never use it again), thankfully it shouldn't be too hard to get some more. Looks like I'll also have some other stuff to yank off the car to put toward the build as well.

Not going PT yet. I'll have to wait until I've got a truck/trailer before I make it a full blown race car.
Ask Greg about running 1.8 brakes on your car. I've heard through the grapevine that he might allow it. 1.6 brakes will stop the car just fine but feel like crap and tear up pads.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:27 AM   #70
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Ask Greg about running 1.8 brakes on your car. I've heard through the grapevine that he might allow it. 1.6 brakes will stop the car just fine but feel like crap and tear up pads.
Will do. I think I read that somewhere that you could class an NA6 as an NA8 if you're willing to take the weight penalty. So if you're already dyno re-classing I can see why it shouldn't be a problem.

With skipping the BBK and selling off the existing braces and two 1.6s I have in the garage, I think that just about covers a VVT and getting the head decked, RB header and MS.
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:23 PM   #71
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I got my transponder wired in tonight. Headed out tomorrow for the test and tune/PDX, then SCCA Club Trials on Saturday.
Im Very familiar with the track and what similar cars are running. So, I'll either be coming back to this thread asking what to remove to get back down to TTE or optimize in D. We'll see!
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:14 PM   #72
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:27 PM   #73
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E.1. 10pts for the extra damping adjustment.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:40 PM   #74
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Oh man I missed this part: "or more than two ranges of adjustment"

I thought it only added points for externals.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:44 PM   #75
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Oh man I missed this part: "or more than two ranges of adjustment"

I thought it only added points for externals.
The HVT/JRi doubles are 3 point NASA PT shocks. 10-point shocks are for externals or MORE than two ranges of adjustment.

10-point shocks: Any triple adjustable or any external reservoir
7-point shocks: Any single or double with piggyback reservoir
3-point shocks: Any single or double without an external reservoir of any kind

The HVT/JRis are +3, not +10.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:48 PM   #76
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Yup, I miss-read again! I'll blame Emilio? j/k I'm illiterate.


I should of pre-faced my post with...I have two sets of Xidas, I would not switch off of them unless I got a ridiculous deal and I was seriously competing with NASA TT/PT. I just like the idea behind them. An acquaintance of mine ran a set of JRis on his TTF integra and put down lots of track records in the southeast, ever since he told me about them I wondered when they would be made for the miata.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:02 AM   #77
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More info from Greg:

Regarding running a 90-93 as a 94-97 during a dyno reclass so you can take advantage of the 1.8 brakes, he has this to say:

Buddy,

For the past year and a half, we have avoided this for the Miata. There are some questions about what parts and assemblies would have to be upgraded, and what could be protested.
We have done this for a few other car models in the past that are more clear as to exactly what parts need to be upgraded to avoid other points, etc. We had a Miata competitor ask about
this in March of '12 as well, and he decided not to be the "protest bait". I don't believe that we have sent any out since then, and we have classed a bunch of 90-93's with motor swaps.

So, at this point, I would prefer not to, and let any (if any) that may still be out there cycle out with their next re-class.
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:36 PM   #78
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So it turns out im pretty slow. 4.8 seconds off E record at my "home" track. Car is fat, not dyno reclassed, on JDM coilovers, 225 NT01s, GV lip, not a "real" air dam, taking 4pts for rpkg trunk spoiler.

I feel pretty confident that im using all the car, all the time. Ive had 2 different local spec hotshots ride and watch my video.

Would sticker 205 R6s, Xidas, and ~100-150 pounds get me close to that 4-4.5 seconds?

I know that is a totally hypothetical and impossible question, I just need some cheer leading
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:58 PM   #79
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If you're going to spend points on aero, make sure it's effective aero.

SM6s and Xidas should be worth at least ~2 seconds. The rest is spending the points better.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:51 AM   #80
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So it turns out im pretty slow. 4.8 seconds off E record at my "home" track. Car is fat, not dyno reclassed, on JDM coilovers, 225 NT01s, GV lip, not a "real" air dam, taking 4pts for rpkg trunk spoiler.

I feel pretty confident that im using all the car, all the time. Ive had 2 different local spec hotshots ride and watch my video.

Would sticker 205 R6s, Xidas, and ~100-150 pounds get me close to that 4-4.5 seconds?

I know that is a totally hypothetical and impossible question, I just need some cheer leading

You have sh*t dampers, quasi-R compound tires, are taking a bunch of aero points for things that add no benefit, AND your surprised your ~5s off of a track record???

I assume you're talking about Mid-Ohio. If so, a decent amount of PTE cars have run at Mid-Ohio a bunch of times. The track record should be a decent time (I'm sure Sav would crush it), and would be a good metric to go against.

You couldn't have seriously thought you were going to be close to the track record in your car though, right?
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