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Old 02-16-2011, 12:02 AM   #121
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In the end the driver has to pull it all together and make things happen. The Spec Miata suspension is not ideal.

So those guys just use it and pull rabbits out of their hats anyway.

See…if they don't, someone else will.
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:33 AM   #122
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What time did he get with just changing the shocks and what is the spec miata record at that track?
At Hallett the SM record is a 1:32.6. I ran a 1:30.5 on Teins, then 1:28.2 on my AST's with ease and bad brakes, John went 1:27.1 in my car that day. It's a 1.8m, 10-turn track where about half the track is one series of turns, the longest straight is ~800'.

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In the end the driver has to pull it all together and make things happen. The Spec Miata suspension is not ideal.

So those guys just use it and pull rabbits out of their hats anyway.

See…if they don't, someone else will.
Bingo, and we have people here like Jason Hart and Saini setting the records in national front-runner cars with perfect set-up...most of our drivers work the a computer and paper rather than in the racing industry too. It's not like the local SM's are garbage, they're set-up by pros who race cars on TV like ALMS, Rolex, and MX-5 Cup. I can only speak for myself, but most of the "fast-circle" around here have about 3-4 years of track experience and we've only been competing for 13-months, not bad for a layman if you ask me.
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:10 PM   #123
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Your track must be a lot different. If I could drop 6 seconds just by changing to cheap china coilovers from kyb agx, I'd be all over it. But I highly doubt it's possible in my case. 6 seconds is huge.
Don't be so sure. Go to FM website. Story of a Cali driver having years of experience @ 1 track and his laptimes were stagnant for years. Went from koni/gc setup to afco's and dropped something like 6 seconds also. The track I'm talking about doesn't have actual sm races there, but many of regions NASA and scca racers test and tune there. Fastest of them who also happens to be the NASA regional champion last year, best lap (iirc) in the 1:30's and most others run 1:32-33 range. My best to date has been 1:27, but times I was comparing were in semi-wet conditions, only difference being 67* temps versus 60*
Those laps were 1:36.2 kyb, 1:30.6 w/d2's. I'm hoping to run 1:25's next full dry day.
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:29 PM   #124
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Could your improvement be caused by getting more experience with the track, and pushing a bit harder because the suspension inspired more confidence?

Our tracks are very similar, short and relatively low speed from all the turns.

Everything I've seen 4 seconds below my time is tube frame on slicks. 6+ seconds would be full fender track record. I just don't see 6 seconds happening in my case. I'd be realistically happy with 2 seconds from something like xidas.

I've been planning on putting some better suspension on later this year. I hope I eat my words.

Last edited by BenR; 02-16-2011 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:16 PM   #125
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Could your improvement be caused by getting more experience with the track, and pushing a bit harder because the suspension inspired more confidence?

Our tracks are very similar, short and relatively low speed from all the turns.

Everything I've seen 4 seconds below my time is tube frame on slicks. 6+ seconds would be full fender track record. I just don't see 6 seconds happening in my case. I'd be realistically happy with 2 seconds from something like xidas.

I've been planning on putting some better suspension on later this year. I hope I eat my words.
I had 60-hours of seat time at Hallett before bolting on the new toys.
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:19 PM   #126
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Who cares if their coilovers are any good or not...DGR is giving away a free set of LUGNUTS!!!!!

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=409463

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Old 02-16-2011, 06:12 PM   #127
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I've been planning on putting some better suspension on later this year. I hope I eat my words.
Maybe we can do a XIDA group buy of two.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:42 PM   #128
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Maybe we can do a XIDA group buy of two.

Only if Emilio would throw in pink lugnuts.


Joking aside if you went some xida's this year I'd probably buy and respring your old teins. lol

Last edited by BenR; 02-16-2011 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:39 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
Could your improvement be caused by getting more experience with the track, and pushing a bit harder because the suspension inspired more confidence?

Our tracks are very similar, short and relatively low speed from all the turns.

Everything I've seen 4 seconds below my time is tube frame on slicks. 6+ seconds would be full fender track record. I just don't see 6 seconds happening in my case. I'd be realistically happy with 2 seconds from something like xidas.

I've been planning on putting some better suspension on later this year. I hope I eat my words.
I think you're referring to hustler but in my case the laps were back to back visits to the track, albeit 6 months apart.
So I didn't have extra experience but for sure it did something confidence wise. The 350/250 springs were fine with uhp street tires, but were too soft for r-comps
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:59 PM   #130
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You can also try some A-B-A-B… testing. If you think a mod dropped your lap times 4-5-6 seconds…swap back to the old parts…fine tune to suit and have at it. And look at the data…WHERE was the time being made and lost? When things get closer then things like blind testing start to make more sense IF the logger cannot clearly find zones where the improvements came from the mod. For instance you'll note that GR Motorsports magazine will do a baseline before and after testing some handling mods. You always run out of testing time but the more reality checks and followups you do, the more confident you can be that certain mods truly benefited your car in the manner expected.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:43 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post
You can also try some A-B-A-B… testing. If you think a mod dropped your lap times 4-5-6 seconds…swap back to the old parts…fine tune to suit and have at it. And look at the data…WHERE was the time being made and lost? When things get closer then things like blind testing start to make more sense IF the logger cannot clearly find zones where the improvements came from the mod. For instance you'll note that GR Motorsports magazine will do a baseline before and after testing some handling mods. You always run out of testing time but the more reality checks and followups you do, the more confident you can be that certain mods truly benefited your car in the manner expected.
It's not really up for debate, drive a car with good shocks and it comes together. I also don't care to install suspension 4-times instead of 1. Not only that, once the money is spent, I'm convinced enough to put my wallet away.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:44 PM   #132
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It's not really up for debate, drive a car with good shocks and it comes together. I also don't care to install suspension 4-times instead of 1. Not only that, once the money is spent, I'm convinced enough to put my wallet away.
Yer gonna have Mark Donohue's ghost rolling his eyes….
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:57 PM   #133
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If you can get the Penske crew to do all the wrenching while babes feed you peeled grapes, then sure, swap it a few times to test back to back.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:08 AM   #134
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Just read Grass Roots Motorsports for some reasonable testing. Not perfect of course but look at some other magazines.

GRM goes back and tests their benchmark after they have completed their main tests. Such as when they compare tires. Or coilovers. Or xxx… Andy Hollis is often involved and has won many big events in cars he developed using similar strategies.

Here is a quote from a recent tire test (my bold):

"Before calling it a day, we always retest our first tire. Did the track, car or driver get faster or slower as the day progressed? Of course, this retest is always accompanied by a bit of nervousness. If these numbers don’t match the first test, then we may have some investigating to do."

Someone claimed a six second per lap improvement after swapping coilovers. Personally I am unsure that the 6 seconds came ONLY from this swap. If there was a retest then we'd have more confidence in how much time the swap produced. There could have been some other factors. If the retest showed only say 2 seconds difference…then claiming six is likely a stretch. If six was shown by a retest, then it begs further investigation to see wassup. After all…maybe there is even more time to be found. Which can be discovered by doing the PITA stuff like this.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:27 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post
Just read Grass Roots Motorsports for some reasonable testing. Not perfect of course but look at some other magazines.

GRM goes back and tests their benchmark after they have completed their main tests. Such as when they compare tires. Or coilovers. Or xxx… Andy Hollis is often involved and has won many big events in cars he developed using similar strategies.

Here is a quote from a recent tire test (my bold):

"Before calling it a day, we always retest our first tire. Did the track, car or driver get faster or slower as the day progressed? Of course, this retest is always accompanied by a bit of nervousness. If these numbers don’t match the first test, then we may have some investigating to do."

Someone claimed a six second per lap improvement after swapping coilovers. Personally I am unsure that the 6 seconds came ONLY from this swap. If there was a retest then we'd have more confidence in how much time the swap produced. There could have been some other factors. If the retest showed only say 2 seconds difference…then claiming six is likely a stretch. If six was shown by a retest, then it begs further investigation to see wassup. After all…maybe there is even more time to be found. Which can be discovered by doing the PITA stuff like this.
We all understood it the first time. No one here cares enough to do this for you so you'll have to die wondering or datalog my genitals, then repeat as the day progresses.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:40 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmarcy View Post
Just read Grass Roots Motorsports for some reasonable testing. Not perfect of course but look at some other magazines.

GRM goes back and tests their benchmark after they have completed their main tests. Such as when they compare tires. Or coilovers. Or xxx… Andy Hollis is often involved and has won many big events in cars he developed using similar strategies.

Here is a quote from a recent tire test (my bold):

"Before calling it a day, we always retest our first tire. Did the track, car or driver get faster or slower as the day progressed? Of course, this retest is always accompanied by a bit of nervousness. If these numbers don’t match the first test, then we may have some investigating to do."

Someone claimed a six second per lap improvement after swapping coilovers. Personally I am unsure that the 6 seconds came ONLY from this swap. If there was a retest then we'd have more confidence in how much time the swap produced. There could have been some other factors. If the retest showed only say 2 seconds difference…then claiming six is likely a stretch. If six was shown by a retest, then it begs further investigation to see wassup. After all…maybe there is even more time to be found. Which can be discovered by doing the PITA stuff like this.


They are autocrossers, their track changes every time. Retesting is more important for them. They're not going to get the sustained and repeatable hours on their track to know exactly where the time is.

If I change one thing on my car and drop a full second, I could tell you exactly where it was and why.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:44 PM   #137
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They are autocrossers, their track changes every time. Retesting is more important for them. They're not going to get the sustained and repeatable hours on their track to know exactly where the time is.

If I change one thing on my car and drop a full second, I could tell you exactly where it was and why.
No, they did their testing on the same course. When you test, you use what is known as the Scientific Method. The idea is to change only ONE thing at a time so that you know what is really going on. Otherwise you are just guessing. If you drop one second on your car, there is a reason for it. It's important to control for other variables so that things like personal bias and other factors don't throw your conclusions off.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:58 PM   #138
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The problem is skill and memory also increase after each pass.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:00 PM   #139
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The problem is skill and memory also increase after each pass.
That's why they do multiple runs and redo a baseline. Decent drivers are also required. And you also log.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:05 PM   #140
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That's why they do multiple runs and redo a baseline. Decent drivers are also required. And you also log.
Guys, just face it, he's right. If anyone wants to test a set of these coilovers with a Professional Datalogging Set, I'll knock 50% off the price.
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