It also doesn't help it is 110° outside as well

It isn't just the temperature, it's the pressure. If you motor is healthy and it's not generating pressure to the coolant the only cause for boiling water in the expansion tank is a broken radiator cap that can't hold the pressure.

Yeah I'm not sure an oversized tank is the solution, because I've never seen that needed on high hp cars before. But iono

In fact just this Friday I beat on a turbo miata with a TSE rad and stock overflow, in 90-100F heat, and nothing boiled over or overflowed.

This could also be a sign of air in the system - Air is way more effected by thermal expansion than liquids, giving you the exact side effects you're having.

That being said, if the previous expansion tank was suited to an OEM sized cooling system and you've increased capacity. It might not be a bad idea to go bigger as a lot can be said about properly matching expansion tanks, but I'd first work on properly burping the car. I ended up purchasing an AIRLIFT Coolant Bleeder system, it creates vacuum in the system and then sucks the coolant into the negative pressure areas. That being said, I run a rear mount radiator and an electric water pump so it might be overkill for you but it would certainly cross that off your list. I don't mind sending it out to you, just get it back to me in working order.

Edit: There is absolutely something to be said about the importance of your radiator cap and coolant mixture. You can increase the boiling point of water by nearly 50 degrees by simply pressurizing it properly. Furthermore you can increase boiling point by running the proper mixture of antifreeze. I'm sure we've all heard "run water, it runs cooler" - this is true water will dissipate heat more quickly but it will also boil sooner. (Note: some of us are required to run just water depending on where you're running your car, coolant is slippery)

For every additional pound your cap is rated for the boiling of point of the mixture raises 3 degrees. If you had plain water in your cooling system with a 15 pound pressure cap water would boil at 257 degrees. If you had a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water the coolant would boil at 265 degrees with the same cap rating.

Bottom line - if you're boiling before your car is overheating you have at least one of the following happening: Air in the system or a weak rad cap. I had both of these issues, along with an expansion tank that was smaller than OEM on a system with nearly double the capacity.

Yeah, did you bleed it with the big yellow funnel? Getting all the air out of the TSE rad can be tricky.

--Ian

<p></p><p>+1 for a vacuum purge system. Suck, Fill, Drive.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

A big tank is a load of bull shit.

If there's boiling water in the line going to the tank, there's going to be boiling water in that line whether its 1 cup or 1 million gallons on the other side of the line.

Stop dicking around and pressure test the system, if it holds pressure to whatever your cap is rated to, something else is going on. If not, it's the cap.

Not complete bullshit but I agree with you. I'm sure he has air in the system and doesn't need a bigger tank. To determine the proper expansion/overflow size you would take the total volume of coolant, and multiply it by the expansion rate of the mix you're using. Then make your tank bigger than that. The reason the large overflow solves his problem for now is related to the air expanding in the system, thus increasing the expansion rate of his mixture.

I've seen cars with 4-5x the power a turbo miata makes, and cooling systems with twice more capacity, and still they didn't run a bigger tank than stock (which also happens to be not bigger than a stock miata tank).

So yeah, to beat the dead horse for the last time: burp the system. If that doesn't help then pressure test.

Standard radiator cap for a ~2004 Dodge 2500 Cummins. Available at any auto parts store.

e: I've been racing N/A and turbo cars on our radiator for 6 years. I have never once boiled the system over or seen any need for a larger coolant overflow tank. Consider my extensive experience in varied applications with this specific radiator before you go and design a part that isn't going to fix the problem you have

Looks like the radiator cap was indeed the issue. no boiling, gurgling, or overflowing the overflow tank now. Temps hold steady at 192º when moving now even with it being 105º outside.

Followed Revlimiter's very detailed advice and managed to get all the air out of the system after several several thermostat cycles and with the aid of some very tall truck jack stands to get the front up as high as I could.

Also decided to put a 13" SPAL fan in place of my OEM fan. Bryan obliged and sent me a package...I had to leave the bakery from laughing so hard at the name on the package.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1439400152

Also finally got a real coolant and oil temp gauge from VDO. Going to see if I can fit them in the factory coolant temp and oil pressure gauge spots.

Decided to get a new exhaust manifold gasket as well. I reused my old one as my flawed reasoning thought that it hadn't been on the head long so I would be ok using it again.

I'm slowly trying to eliminate variables on my slower spool. 4k rpms is just too slow. No leaks at the manifold to turbo vband, downpipe, or EWG. Going to play around with a MBC to see if something is up with my solenoid. We'll see, slowly but surely I'll figure it out.

So you took off the head because of a faulty radiator cap?

Well only partially did my stupidity apply to that logic. Mostly I was concerned it was necessary due to my head studs only being torqued to 30 ft lbs.

But looking back, I'm mildly annoyed at myself for ignoring the radiator cap. Lesson learned I guess.

Gotta remember I'm no pro at all this stuff. I'm figuring it out as I go. Throughout the entire car build I never once touched the engine.

plus it gave him a reason to polish the inside of his engine

Polishing the rods and crank will reduce stress risers thus making them stronger, plus the oil won't cling to them thus lightning the rotating assembly. Polishing the inside of the block itself will help the oil return to the pan too.

Do it Jeff, polish ALLTHETHINGS inside of the block. :likecat:

There is actually a guy on youtubez that does this /\
Successfully.
And then coats it in some anti-friction coating or something.
He must be Jeff's grandfather

Also if I recall you had oil in your coolant? I'd say between that and your stud torque (with mileage), a head gasket was in order.

+1. Oil in coolant = HG.

Localized boiling due to inadequate radiator cap, low stud torque and dyno tuning likely caused the HG failure.

It's all good and we're one step closer to pictures of a fully-polished interior on a BP.

Guys don't jinx the block now....I'm sure I'd enjoy polishing all the internals, but the only items I have yet been forced to "fix" are the block, transmission, and differential and suspension. Let's leave those happily untouched!

Bryan/Hornet bring up a good point, the oil in the coolant proved the HG job was not all for naught.

Vlad are you talking about that red rubber like coating the miata guy on youtube coated his block/head with?

yeah

I can see his point on how it helps but it sure seems like a hell of a lot of work for a very small gain.

Found it, product called Glyptal

Holy crap, that guy makes jeffbucc look rational polishing a PPF.

For real real. There are indeed people out there much more meticulous than I am(and usually have the know-how to accomplish it as well).

Got a few things taken care of today. Made all the brackets for my SPAL 13" fan

Used 1/8" aluminum to make the brackets. I didn't make a shroud because I'm not sure if I need one or not. I'll see how well it pulls heat out of the radiator and if needed mock up an ABS shroud(already made the template).

Not my best work but I didn't want to make them too thin and have them flex.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1439691580

used M6x1.0 rivnuts because I wouldn't get enough thread in the aluminum to be secure. Looks a little funky, but that is just due to them not being aligned.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1439691580
Attachment 237616

All mounted up and wired in. Had to add a little duty to my idle when it kicks on. Sucker draws a lot of power and makes my OEM fan's CFM seem cute in comparison.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1439691580

Made a new throttle cable bracket as well. I made my old one out of some 1/16" exhaust pipe, and it would cause a little TPS jitter from the vibrations at idle. The 1/8" bracket is way more sturdy.

Attachment 237617

Just need to wire in my gauges for coolant and oil temp, and see how I'm going to go about fitting them in the OEM coolant temp and oil pressure locations without hacking it up.

Yes! I love me some jafromobile. I watch his videos over and over. Glyptal is a pretty cool product but after you see the work that went into his prep just to paint...it makes you tired watching the youtube version.

Slowly but surely I'm getting my boost response a little better.
-cleaned out my EBC solenoid(surprising amount of junk in it)-better seal/response
-tracked down a couple boost leaks after making a boost leak tester(pvc pipe plug+air compressor quick release)
-rerouted vacuum lines to EWG

Now I'm going to try messing with my PID to see if there is something that my car just doesn't agree with. The solenoid IS sealing and closing so something is up on the software side.

On that note, I was comparing his new Spark Advance Table with my original file, and noticed he cut back on timing pretty significantly, even with all the beneficial upgrades I've done to the car(where do I begin?).

So the question being, why, after the original owner successfully ran this spark table for several years, did he retard the timing so much? Playing it safe?

Maybe I just don't understand it properly, but methinks this is partially why my low end power is just so terrible to what it was on my 2860rs turbo. I simply can't get boost to respond properly as this EFR has proven to perform on very very similar builds.

-timing is correct
-zero boost leaks
-no injector leaks
-leakdown test shows all is good

I'm just getting a little defeated at this point, smack your head against the wall enough times and you eventually you learn it isn't fun anymore.

Doesn't help, that again, I am learning from ground zero every step of the way. Which is good, albeit frustrating at times. But, I'm to the point I want to drop it off at Flyin' Miata, get down on my knees and take the damage huge bill they will surely cum all over my face(excuse the mental image).

Original Spark Advance Map

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1439989484

New Spark Advance Map

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1439989484

Old vs new boost settings

Attachment 237606

old vs new boost settings screen shot not showing up for some reason.

There could be several reasons for him retarding it more:
-tuner is conservative
-it was seeing knock during tuning.
-the newly rebuilt head on engine holds much better compression

What would be a lot more helpful is a log showing the actual commanded timing through a pull. So like 3rd or 4th from 2k-redline. Then you know what it's actually doing. Or go through it in MLV and plot out the path down the spark map and then compare.

your boost duty should be at 100% until it starts to upswing fast, so if he's got it tapering then that needs to be fixed. (although I DO agree that your timing looks pretty darn low)

don't get defeated, you're just messing with finalization type stuff now, it's actually kinda fun (IMO). Much better than starting from scratch or setting the thing up.

The key now is LOG LOG LOG cause you want to quantify everything that's happening and what changes are affecting what now. Save messing with timing for after you've dialed in the boost controller.

I'll try to get some solid logs today after work. I honestly dont think it is the boost settings, as I have ran it off the wastegate only and it still showed similar spool(4k), so I'm leaning towards something else.

I need to tear the valve cover off after I try the software side of things and learn how to check my valve lash. Maybe it went out of spec after being rebuilt. 7thous exhaust and 10thous intake if memory serves me right on the 99 head.

wat?
shoudln't it upswing MUCH faster with ebc? that suggests to me exactly the opposite of what you're concluding.

try this, seriously:
-set boost cut to something low like 15psi
-disconnect the vacuum line to the wg
-do a WOT log from 2k til cut or til it goes past like 10psi, in your 1:1 gear

that will once and for all show you if it's the ebc or not.

Yeah it weirdly doesn't though, in regards to climbing faster via EBC.

That is a very good idea, I'll log that as well.

One thought I just had is the new map is using the initial value boost table, while the old had it turned off. Maybe IVB is interfering withe boost climb due to the values he inputted.

I'll stop the conjecturing though until I get some data for you, just running through the differences in the tunes elimination style as I contemplate this.

OR, drive they extra 9.5 hours to Oregon City and let me take a look, then dyno on a proper DynoJet with Kris of KO Racing looking over our shoulder.

That is becoming a possibility soon. Just picked up a Euro Westfalia Class 2 hitch for my Jetta. Just need to get a tow dolly(sell my KW V3s) and I will have no problem driving 10 hours with AC, cruise, comfy seats, 30ish mpg +/-.

Or drive it to Kaliforneeya and I can take a look on the local Mustang Dyno too ;)

*edit: arent you coming down for MRLS anyway?

*edit#2: opened up that post on my phone and noticed the CL Boost PID is WAY different on the new settings. Before it looks to be set to hit target agressively and now way slower and way smoother.

btw what is your initial duty table look like?

Me first! :giggle:

It looks like he changed the break points on your ignition table and then took a solid percentage out of the 175 + kPa area. Doesn't look like it was tuned for torque but without knowing exactly what was happening I'm not going to say it was a good or bad move on the tuners part.

Well, there's basically two reasons to reduce the timing. One is that it's pinging, the other is that it's beyond MBT and there are no gains to be had by running the timing that high. It seems unlikely to me that 14 degrees is MBT at 200 kpa, but it varies a lot depending on the engine config. AIUI, the higher the VE of the engine, the less timing advance it wants for MBT, although I'm not sure why.

Personally, I would add some more progressiveness to the boost target table so that you can use more of the throttle travel range to actually change the power level.

Changing the breakpoints makes a lot of sense, previously you had nothing between 215 and 300, so it was just linearly interpolating. If your peak boost target is 260, then that's not really a good thing.

--Ian

One thing is for sure: 100kpa and below there is a LOT of timing that can be added back in without issues

And you can feel that Vlad, below 3k it is so gutless.

Ehhh, overstatement, but you get that "hurry the fuck up" ansyness when it doesn't climb the rpms as you'd like it to.

I really need to read up on timing adjustment and spark tuning. That has always been the area I've never understood/too scared to start in on.

AIUI, it's pretty straightforward really. If you graph timing vs torque, the left part of the graph shows big gains from every degree you add. Eventually the curve starts to flatten out, and the peak torque is at "MBT". To the right of MBT, it actually starts to lose torque as you add more timing.

Supposedly the stress on the rods goes up a lot as you approach MBT, so ideally you want the motor tuned a degree or two off MBT, to maximize your torque gains while minimizing the stress.

If you're using a dyno, finding MBT (for boosted rows) isn't hard, you pick a row on the table and start adding timing to that row in successive dyno pulls. If the shape of the table is wrong, then you'll probably get to MBT in some cells before you get to it in others, so you start only adding timing in the cells where it actually adds power. Once you find MBT, you back it off a bit, and move up to the next row.

If it pings, then you stop there and back it off a bunch, obviously. :) A little bit of pinging isn't going to do much damage, the trick is in accurately determining when it's pinging, and that's where having dyno tuning experience helps a lot.

You also need good boost control to get this to work, because changing the timing will change the amount of boost you get out of the turbine at a given wastegate setting. If the boost varies by 10 kpa then the torque gains or loss from that can mask the gains or loss from the timing change. Dyno software that could graph torque divided by MAP would be really useful here, but I don't know of any dynos that do that.

As for how you tune timing without a dyno, I have no clue. AFAICT, you basically don't.

--Ian

Thanks for that Codrus. I see what you mean by the difficulty without a dyno/experience.

Maybe I'll start playing with timing below 3k rpm/150kpa to see how that changes the spool/graph/map.

You can do spark tuning REALLY roughly/crudely on the street, but once it comes down to that last 10hp then yeah there's no way at all to do it without a dyno.

I mean we pretty much "know" what a miata spark map should look like in most cases, that's how many of us were able to tell you that yours is conservative just by looking at it.

mind posting yours so I can play around with the lower kpa fields a little? I won't use it as copy/paste, just to experiment if messing with boost settings doesn't get my desired results.

Sure, when I'm home and have my lappy toppy

On another note, anyone else realize you end up making a shitload of brackets throughout the build of your car? I have made so many I've lost count.

Used the old AC condensor bracket and after a little drilling grinding, rivnuts, and some undercoating spray(vibrations) it's no longer zip-tied to the headlight motor.:facepalm:

Little farther away from the heat as well

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1440006886

Proper bracket material -- HD/Lowes Racing aluminum stock:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1440003177

Love that stuff, and I used it for all my radiator and fan brackets, but I was bereft and have about 30#s of misc brackets sitting in a box so...meh, it was the perfect size for the EBC.

I was just showing off my aluminum brazing. ;)

If I wasn't saving for a tow dolly, then I'd be buying a mig welder. Welding is one of the few skills(humor my subtle sarcasm) I haven't tried/invested in with this car build.

But yes Hornet, *pats you on the back* you still got them skills!

<p>Jeff get one of these.</p><p>https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1440007982</p><p>3rd aluminum weld ever:</p><p>https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1440007982</p><p>You can make some cool stuff.</p>

<p></p><p>Skip mig go to tig.</p>

The coffers ain't unlimited. I have no need for one at this point as well. It'd merely be hobby purchase at this point.

The whole fab/create stuff portion of the build is fairly well wrapped up(thank god).

Sounds like good advice.

How does TIG do on steel? Mostly see folks using it for aluminum. I guess a cheapo flux-core welder or stick welder could handle steel needs.

Thread derailment pros.

Campbell Hausfeld® 115V MIG / Flux Core Wire Feed Welder - 167107, Welders & Accessories at Sportsman's Guide
I has this. Cheap, and you won't be able to penetrate really thick stuff, but it works just fine for 99% of the things I need it for.

<p>TIG handles steel like a fucking boss. You see your sexy manifold? Thats TIG on steel.</p><p>Lets be real, if we talk jeff into buying a welder he will end up with some $10k miller.</p>

If you want to TIG aluminum, make sure you buy an AC capable machine. If it is a DC only machine, you ain't gon weld no aluminum, ever (98% true).
It is possible to weld aluminum without AC, but the welds look awful and you need helium gas to make the arc super hot and the weld will be filthy dirty and fail.

Tig machines make really nice welds, but you have to make your material super clean, and it takes forever compared to a big wirefeed MIG.

I'm starting to sense resistance to our suggestions though.

But Jeff, just think of the beautiful stainless bread racks you could build!! Shiny!!

Sorry, 2 years of building this thing has slightly left me apathetic towards the shiny shiny things. I just want to maintain it and drag it to the track and enjoy my fiscal irresponsible hobby, not the wrenching/wiring/cursing/troubleshooting aspect.

If you can tell, I'm slightly annoyed at all the shit that's broken in the past 8 months. That is probably mostly due to a lot of bakery repair bills on equipment this year as well though.

That's the welder I got Jefe. It's awesome.

Well I didn't get to play around with logging boost and timing as I hoped, work has been killing me.

I did manage to melt my speedo cable so I've got a new one coming in tomorrow so I'm not using GPS to hold my speed at 4100 RPM so I know I'm going 85mph...that gets old. This time a little aluminum tape wrapped around it to help reflect some of that manifold heat!

I did pick up a MBC to play with. After I play with it so I'm at 20psi I'll mess around with using it in conjunction with my EBC so the valve is 100% closed till 20 psi. Merely interested if it changes anything and these things are dirt cheap.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1441407920

Mostly excited about this for my VW though. Eliminates the annoyance of your subframe shifting/creaking/going out of alignment by locking your bolts in a centralized location so they can't shift.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1441407920

Stupid subframe design!

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1441407920

<p>... that's a JSW subframe?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&quot;Hmm... ze aluminum is cheap, vat is ze best vay to use more aluminum?&quot;</p>

Plus for assembly speed at the factory their bolt tolerances are shit. Want to remove your front sway bar? Have to drop your subframe!