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Old 01-31-2012, 02:04 PM   #1
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Default Curly's boring mt.net circle of life completion (Turbo->N/A conversion)

This is kinda troll/feeler/hypothetical, but it has some basis in near future reality.

I'm considering upgrading my hot parts. Currently I have the Greddy manifold, turbo, and a custom 2.5" downpipe that's connected to a custom exhaust.

For various reasons I'm annoyed with it after every track day, even if it works perfectly. What does the MT.net racing brain trust suggest for a budget orientated, track worthy setup?

stuff I've considered:
FM's DIY setup -$750
BEGI setup -$1039
Artech -$??
?? -$??

Things to know: Price of V-bands is out of the question, so inconel studs will be used for all setups. I'd like side or bottom mount. Simplicity is key. Same goes for external wastegates.

Exhaust will most likely be modified onto the new DP, but I'd like to be able to use any off the shelf exhaust for future use. New exhaust options will be another thread, another time.

Budget is roughly $1000, depending on how much I get for my current setup, how much a churbo costs, etc.

Bonus points for suggesting ways to reuse my greddy turbo with the new manifold and DP.
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:05 PM   #2
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I'd say go custom af or at if you can afford it, and begi/fm if you can't

those sexi tubi manifolds will always outperform the logs
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:49 PM   #3
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Quote:
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I'd say go custom af or at if you can afford it, and begi/fm if you can't

those sexi tubi manifolds will always outperform the logs
I emphatically agree. I'd go with ARTech only because Tim is not doing downpipes anymore and that will require another step. I also suggest a TiAL wastegate because its so much easier to work with and its consistent. Do a top mount for ease of installation or a bottom mount to get the weight and heat down low. The lower you go, with an angle on the turbo means a relatively straight downpipe. Then, safety wire everything with Inconel.

I understand that you don't want v bands because of cost, but after you buy Inco bolts for both downgrade, you're half way to v-bands. I will admit that v-bands are wiorth the cost for groupies and extreme ease of installation. If you soend a little more now, it will pay off five years from now when you don't want something new or don't mind the 15 minutes required to R&R the turbo.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:46 PM   #4
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Do a top mount for ease of installation or a bottom mount to get the weight and heat down low. The lower you go, with an angle on the turbo means a relatively straight downpipe. Then, safety wire everything with Inconel.
This is mostly why I don't want a top mount, for the annoying DP by the heater core lines, restrictions in said DP, and just generally how high the stupid thing sits. Tightening the bolts is incredibly easy though, but inconel needs to be in my future regardless.

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I understand that you don't want v bands because of cost, but after you buy Inconel bolts for both downgrade, you're half way to v-bands. I will admit that v-bands are worth the cost for groupies and extreme ease of installation. If you spend a little more now, it will pay off five years from now when you don't want something new or don't mind the 15 minutes required to R&R the turbo.
At my power and driver level, I'm not convinced I need inconel for the downpipe, which I'm assuming is what you meant when you said "downgrade". Autocorrect fail?

I realize v-bands are great, but the housing plus the actual v-band units are just too expensive. And then I'd really feel awful using an internal wastegate, forcing me to buy external, another v-band, and spend that much more.

Like I said, I'm trying to keep this under a $500 swap, including whatever profit I get from my greddy setup.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:38 PM   #5
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At my power and driver level, I'm not convinced I need inconel for the downpipe, which I'm assuming is what you meant when you said "downgrade". Autocorrect fail?
Autocorrect fail. Get the Inco stuff now because if you find out that you needed them at the track, you either get to fix the car every session while melting stuff, or go home and forgo the cost of track time which is equal to or more than the cost of Inco bolts.

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I realize v-bands are great, but the housing plus the actual v-band units are just too expensive. And then I'd really feel awful using an internal wastegate, forcing me to buy external, another v-band, and spend that much more.
The TiAL housings come with all required V-bands for installation so there is no extra cost. TiAL is making some internal gated V-band stuff now, not sure if it's available or not.


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Like I said, I'm trying to keep this under a $500 swap, including whatever profit I get from my greddy setup.
Good luck with that. I vote you save your cash and build something you'll never have to wrench on again, like me. Its not fun when you have to work on the car between sessions; reliability is the secret to fun out there.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:27 AM   #6
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You can spot the turbo miata drivers without inconel quickly. They are the guys with the hood up between sessions wearing welding gloves and holding a 14mm box wrench.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:26 AM   #7
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Nickle sport on Ebay has started to make v-band exhaust housing. Email them and see if you can get a Churbo vband 2871 or similar. Maybe mate it to another churbo because theirs are really pricey.

$260

http://www.ebay.com/itm/V-band-inlet...sories&vxp=mtr
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:13 PM   #8
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Vband housing, $279/$350
V-band flanges/clamps, $160
Tial MVS, $250 (no option for IWG)
Additional fab work (EWG port + dump tube), $200

We're up to $900 in v-band parts alone. Still have to buy turbo, manifold, and DP.

Curly, if you're ok with re-using your greddy TD04, I can make a AF style low mount manifold and 3" SGDP for it for $885. If you're looking for something cheaper, the best I can do is $710 for a log+SGDP. It actually doesn't matter what turbo you want to use, the price will be the same, but you have the option of reusing your Greddy turbo to save a little coin
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:51 PM   #9
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^Very enticing indeed.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
Vband housing, $279/$350
V-band flanges/clamps, $160
Tial MVS, $250 (no option for IWG)
Additional fab work (EWG port + dump tube), $200

We're up to $900 in v-band parts alone. Still have to buy turbo, manifold, and DP.

Curly, if you're ok with re-using your greddy TD04, I can make a AF style low mount manifold and 3" SGDP for it for $885. If you're looking for something cheaper, the best I can do is $710 for a log+SGDP. It actually doesn't matter what turbo you want to use, the price will be the same, but you have the option of reusing your Greddy turbo to save a little coin
Abe is bauce.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Abe is bauce.
He just needs to finish my exhaust first
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:15 AM   #12
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Yep, yours and 4 others. I should have mentioned it above, there is a 6 week lead time.

Dallas, I sent you a PM.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:50 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
Vband housing, $279/$350
V-band flanges/clamps, $160
Tial MVS, $250 (no option for IWG)
Additional fab work (EWG port + dump tube), $200

We're up to $900 in v-band parts alone. Still have to buy turbo, manifold, and DP.
Thanks for a little reality for these folks, I knew it wasn't a great idea. I could have inconel bolts for my fenders and still stay under $900.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
If you're looking for something cheaper, the best I can do is $710 for a log+SGDP. It actually doesn't matter what turbo you want to use, the price will be the same, but you have the option of reusing your Greddy turbo to save a little coin
I like love this idea, but using an ebay T25, like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT2860-gt28-...item3a6f6d438a

Mainly because I feel like I could get a better price for my current setup if I kept the turbo with it.

Can I have more info on this $710 option? Material? Lead time? Design? I'm ok with 2.5" if that's what's included. I'm mating this up with my current crapustom 2.5" exhaust for the time being, so there's no point in 3" yet anyways.


P.S. Thanks for chiming in here. I'm trying to keep my car in a budget turbo theme, so this info will be good for anyone else looking to do the same.
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:47 AM   #14
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Reading comprehension fail, you said log style. Bottom or side mount? And you answered my lead time question. So all that's remaining is material and dp size?
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:56 PM   #15
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Material is .145" (SCH40) mild steel. It can be top, or bottom mount. I don't think side mount will work with a basic log manifold and that turbo. The frame rail will probably be in the way of the compressor housing. FM/BEGI get around this by raising the turbo flange an inch or two from level with the exhaust ports. Even then, it's a tight fit. Here's a FM setup with a trimmed rail to clear the compressor housing:



You can imagine what it would look like if the turbo was moved down two inches. If you don't have A/C or power steering, I'd suggest a bottom mount for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.

The downpipe can be made in either diameter, but there's no good reason to not use 3". More power and faster spool. If your existing exhaust's 2.5" flange has slotted holes, it should bolt on fine. You likely won't get the full power/spool benefit until you mate a 3" exhaust to it, but it'll be one less part to buy when you do decide to upgrade it.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:13 PM   #16
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I kind of figured about the side mount design. I would think making a log manifold that compact in the first place would be difficult. Seems like the distance between the two flanges is pretty small.

No PS or AC. So the bottom mount will work great. I'll also go with the 3". My existing exhaust has ----. It's 2.5" yes, but the 2.5" greddy DP does not bolt up at the stock location, so the exhaust in front of the cat is custom to mate up with the DP. If that makes any sense.

If your 3" DP goes to the stock location, it should go a foot or so past where my current DP ends, and I'll cut the exhaust to mate up with it. It'll be a little ghetto, probably with some 3"->2.5" adapter welded on, but it'll work until I can buy an Enthuza unit or something.

Here's a rough picture looking from the front of the engine back. You can see where the DP mates with the exhaust, just behind where the block and tranny meet.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:21 PM   #17
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Looks like your dp has a herpes outbreak lol
Abe has got you covered.

Another option is an ETD shorty style setup where its at like 45* or so like I had on my 1st setup. Flows better than a log and is just as compact.

But if you don't have ps/ac there is no reason under the sun not to go bottom mount. Win all around.
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
but it'll work until I can buy an Enthuza.
Or Artech. Just sayin'

Yeah, my DP will end at the factory location. When someone buys a complete turbo back setup, I include v-bands, but it doesn't sound like you're quite ready for the additional expense, right?

If the exhaust has the same type of flange as the DP, you can reuse it after cutting. It'll bolt up to my 3" flange directly. No transition needed. A transition would flow better, but if you'll be replacing the exhaust soon anyway, I wouldn't bother. Or if you don't to reuse the current flange, I can provide one. I know the 2.5" flanges I use bolt up to my 3" flanges just fine.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:04 PM   #19
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Or Artech. Just sayin'
Of course. I only say Enthuza because I've researched it in the past year or so and they're the cheapest option with an easily locatable price to plug into one of my many expense worksheets.

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Yeah, my DP will end at the factory location. When someone buys a complete turbo back setup, I include v-bands, but it doesn't sound like you're quite ready for the additional expense, right?
Nope, sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
If the exhaust has the same type of flange as the DP, you can reuse it after cutting. It'll bolt up to my 3" flange directly. No transition needed. A transition would flow better, but if you'll be replacing the exhaust soon anyway, I wouldn't bother. Or if you don't to reuse the current flange, I can provide one. I know the 2.5" flanges I use bolt up to my 3" flanges just fine.
Hmm, any chance I could get a bolt hole I.D. and bolt hole length of your 3" flange? Like so:


Now that the decision has been made to go with Abe, y'all need to help me pick a turbo. Keep in mind I'm upgrading from a TD04 that I actually like, I just want a new one, and would prefer a generic one, so I've been looking at T25/T28s.

1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/T25-T28-Turb...item43a3907a40

Best bang for the buck as far as I've seen, if no one has anything bad to say, this is the one I'd like. I'd take the bolted on V-band adapter off and chuck it. Or give it to Abe if he wants it.

Compressor .42 A/R Compressor
Turbine .86A/R Turbine
Compressor Wheel 60mm/42mm
Turbine Wheel 53mm/46mm

2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/S13-S14-Turb...item2a17f017c3

Compressor Wheel
0.60A/R cold Side
Ind: 42.50mm
Exd:60mm
Trim: 50

Turbiner Wheel
0.69A/R
Garrett 4Bolt T25 Flange
Ind: 52.90mm
Exd: 45.47mm

3. http://www.ebay.com/itm/TURBO-CHARGE...item4ab381419f

Compressor Wheel
0.60 A/R Cold Side
IND: 54mm
EXD: 70mm
Trim: 60
Turbiner Wheel
0.64 A/R
Garrett 4 Bolt T25 Flange
IND: 52.90mm
EXD: 45.47mm

4. ?????

Looking back, I actually like #3 since I can make an offer...


EDIT: Oh, oil cooled only...is that a bad thing? That's what the greddy is, but I always figured I'd be adding water lines...
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:21 PM   #20
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Josh,

I just purchased this:



It was $45 shipped. I figure I'll give it a try and see how it goes...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180753514045...84.m1542.l2649
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