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Old 03-22-2010, 02:06 PM   #81
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:07 PM   #82
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how does it feel to be stationed in europe's most up and coming prosperous economy?
eeh, I spend 98% of my time drunk in Belgium, I'm willing to say I alone am keeping Belgium's head above the water with the money I spend on good beer there.

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I pay 40 a month for 25mbps. I download 50GB a day lul.
Still haven't weened yourself off of that Desert-induced **** addiction huh?
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:10 PM   #83
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Still haven't weened yourself off of that Desert-induced **** addiction huh?
There's not enough **** in the world.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:16 PM   #84
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I'd be all for putting in those EZ Pass tollbooths and cutting out road taxes entirely. Pay for your use, not the right to use it. I drive 10-15 miles a week in vehicles that weigh no more than 3200 lbs, why should I subsidize the people who are driving 300-400 miles a week in vehicles that weigh nearly twice that?
because your gas, food, amazon.com orders, mail and everything else that comes on the road will increase in price...

but back to healthcare. and lets leave the epithets and ballyhoo out of the thread so we can have a real discussion.

what is it exactly that you guys dont like about the bill?

* private insurance markets that allow small businesses and individuals to shop around for the best plan to inspire competitive pricing?

* giving healthcare to people with preexisting conditions?

* making health insurance companies spend more of each dollar you pay on healthcare instead of profit?

* your ability to choose your own plan instead of having your company pick something at random and not knowing how much it costs you?

* total lack of single payer system or public option?


is it just the:

* individual insurance mandate inspired by mitt romney?

* federal subsidies for low incomes that bring more customers to the markets?

* excise tax on high cost plans? (which most of you seem to not care about anyway based on the debate here)

* raising payroll tax for medicare for high income groups?


(it took me so long to post this, this thread is 5 pages in and de-evolving rapidly)
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:20 PM   #85
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I don't like the fact that I have yet to hear one shred of information on how this will effect my military health benefits, and not for a lack of searching/asking mind you.

Other than that I do not like the fact that ANY bill can be passed without at least a single vote from both parties involved. The fact that there are an overwhelming number of people who want answers before the bill is voted on, people who do not want the bill passed, etc... and the fact that the Bill is so damn long that there is NO WAY that ANY single person in Washington has read every word of the damn thing, if that's all this bill is doing then why does it need to be eleventy-billion freakin pages long? More or less, I want things cleared up, engraved in stone, NO PUBLIC OPTION, NO PUBLIC/GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE, and no effect on my current or future military health benefits.

Oh and it goes without saying since it's included more or less in the "no government run health care" thing, but no publci funds for killing babies would be a great thing.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #86
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because your gas, food, amazon.com orders, mail and everything else that comes on the road will increase in price...
Okay, so they increase in price. If I have more things delivered, and drive less, I shift my expenses from road tolls to delivery cost. If I drive more and have fewer things delivered, I shift my expenses from product price and delivery cost to road tolls. It's my choice, but at least I'm paying for my actual usage.

Why are you opposed to people who use the road more paying a higher percentage of its funding?
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:26 PM   #87
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Why are you opposed to people who use the road more paying a higher percentage of its funding?
In a sense they do, "trucks" not meaning pick-up trucks but big, heavy trucks that take a higher toll on the road condition over time, do pay higher registration cost in most places I know of.

But I definitely understand what you're saying as well and in theory it's a great concept but would never really be able to be put into effect in my opinion.

EDIT: If we cut taxes that funded roadways to instead pay tolls based on our usage, wouldn't gas prices go DOWN y8s? I mean, really...all those taxes you pay on every gallon of gas go towards the roadways just like they're supposed to so we can just eliminated all of those...RIIIIGGGHHHHHTTT?
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:27 PM   #88
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I am a dumb recalcitrant POS, so bear with me people.

At what point did the assumption that the gov will guarantee good health care get a pass?

Lookng at medicare and medicade, my faith in the gov ability to administrate health systems and pay-outs is nil.

Some gov agencies run quite well. Others run like absolute crap and are incredibly inefficient. Much like private business, save that crap business tend to die quickly while government agencies can live on. And on. Ans that includes regulatory agencies, which I ASSume will grow exponentially with this bill.

I just dont get the idea that having the gov control healthcare or be a huge influence on it somehow guarantees all this warm and fuzzy sanctity of life stuff. I dont think the gov is out to get me, but I also dont carte blanch assume their motives are pure either.

Frankly the gov is just as capable of favoring the rich as private business. Sometimes even more so. Take a good look at the way lobbying and election finance runs in this country. Explain how thats serving the little guy to me.

Explain how raiding SS for all the projects and pork is good for the little guy. Gov does it all the time.

Keep in mind this is a not a partisan opinion. I hate both parties. They all go drink at the same country clubs after work.

So why is it that having the gov controll healthcare is making the world better for the poor? Why is it that we cant overhaul the severely fucked up systems in place for the poor and let others handle their own lives? So people can do whatever they wish with their money, and if they dont have any they are not left to rot? Thats always been the essence of this nation to me. Work on your own merit, and society will help you if you need it. And not just the government aspect of society, but private citizens and groups. The Red Cross (proud volunteer speaking) gets not one damn dime from taxes. Yet look at all the good they do. Look at church groups. Here in COS, there are a few churches who have just collected voluntary money from their members and put together 1st class facilities for people. Thats what society should be all about to me.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:29 PM   #89
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Lookng at medicare and medicade, my faith in the gov ability to administrate health systems and pay-outs is nil.
NO no no, it's ok....to pay for the 100billion dollar bill, we're going to go through and cut all the waste and fraud involved with medicare, it's obviously so easy to do it that we can ONLY do so by passing a bill that's going to take all the money we save plus some to fund.

****'s a ******* joke.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:32 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
because your gas, food, amazon.com orders, mail and everything else that comes on the road will increase in price...

but back to healthcare. and lets leave the epithets and ballyhoo out of the thread so we can have a real discussion.

what is it exactly that you guys dont like about the bill?

* private insurance markets that allow small businesses and individuals to shop around for the best plan to inspire competitive pricing?

* giving healthcare to people with preexisting conditions?

* making health insurance companies spend more of each dollar you pay on healthcare instead of profit?

* your ability to choose your own plan instead of having your company pick something at random and not knowing how much it costs you?

* total lack of single payer system or public option?


is it just the:

* individual insurance mandate inspired by mitt romney?

* federal subsidies for low incomes that bring more customers to the markets?

* excise tax on high cost plans? (which most of you seem to not care about anyway based on the debate here)

* raising payroll tax for medicare for high income groups?


(it took me so long to post this, this thread is 5 pages in and de-evolving rapidly)
it seems like a lot of it has to do with the fact that it is government run, and paying for someone else's "free lunch." anybody here ever filled out assisted medical care forms? my history teacher was HARDCORE republican, and very against it until she realized the **** isn't nearly as "easy" as she thought, months of exchange and proof were required... every system has holes, and honestly i would rather be paying more for inefficiency and coverage, than lack of coverage then inefficiency along with a high profit margin.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:37 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
because your gas, food, amazon.com orders, mail and everything else that comes on the road will increase in price...

but back to healthcare. and lets leave the epithets and ballyhoo out of the thread so we can have a real discussion.

what is it exactly that you guys dont like about the bill?

* private insurance markets that allow small businesses and individuals to shop around for the best plan to inspire competitive pricing?

Great idea. Why couldnt that have been done with changing regs like removing the anti-trust exemption (which they did do just recently).
* giving healthcare to people with preexisting conditions?

Giving is awesome! But does this FORCE companies to ignore that? If so, guess what, everyones costs just went way up by neccessity.
* making health insurance companies spend more of each dollar you pay on healthcare instead of profit?

Wonderful. Save that from what I have seen without that evil profit effiency and initiative goes down the tubes, eventully resulting in less spent on care and more spent on proping up a system. In other words, the opposite of what the goal was.
* your ability to choose your own plan instead of having your company pick something at random and not knowing how much it costs you?

I was able to choose my own plan from a list of like 8 the last time I had insurance. Buying privately, I can also select from a few providers. And that will only improve with the anti-trust exemption. Working for a company, you do have the option to opt out and get some other insurance. Nobody forced me to do anything and I had a nice itemized list of what x coverage cost me and I saw the deduction right on my pay stub.

* total lack of single payer system or public option?

I still dont fully undertand the issue so I wont comment.


is it just the:

* individual insurance mandate inspired by mitt romney?

See above.

* federal subsidies for low incomes that bring more customers to the markets?

Giving to the poor is great, unless its overall affect is to create more poor.

* excise tax on high cost plans? (which most of you seem to not care about anyway based on the debate here)

Define hogh cost.

* raising payroll tax for medicare for high income groups?

Define high cost. The govs idea of what rich is is a pretty elastic one and frankly looking at the 'rich' people I know who own/run companies, the prospect of more costs is not helping them to hire and me to find a job.
(it took me so long to post this, this thread is 5 pages in and de-evolving rapidly)
Totaly understand the 5 page thing. I dont plan to get to into this either.

The intentions are good, but IMHO the assumptions underlying the application are badly flawed.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:44 PM   #92
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NO no no, it's ok....to pay for the 100billion dollar bill, we're going to go through and cut all the waste and fraud involved with medicare, it's obviously so easy to do it that we can ONLY do so by passing a bill that's going to take all the money we save plus some to fund.

****'s a ******* joke.
we could probably make it by cutting our military budget by a single percentile...
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:46 PM   #93
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What is wrong with you people. Health care is a good thing. Like crap, we've had it in Canada for ages and it's amazing. Essentials are free, and drugs are cheap. The whole argument of "private blah blah makes competition makes it cheaper" is a load of crap when it comes to health care. Why do you think people travel to Canada and Mexico to buy medication?

I also don't want to hear the argument "but you get crappy health service in Canada" because we don't. Essential Health care is immediate. I woke up one day with no hearing in one ear. Within 40 minutes I was at my doctors. about 45 minutes after that I was at an ear specialist. Got a full hearing test, looked over by the specialist, and then prescribed medication. Went to the local drug store, got my medication (for free), and in 3 days was totally healthy. I was diagnosed with tin ear but because it was found so early and treated, I was able to actually get my hearing back.
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From Wiki...

Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly-funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities.[1] It is guided by the provisions of the Canada Health Act.[2] The government assures the quality of care through federal standards. The government does not participate in day-to-day care or collect any information about an individual's health, which remains confidential between a person and their physician. Canada's Provincially based Medicare systems are cost effective partly because of their administrative simplicity. In each province each doctor handles the insurance claim against the provincial insurer. There is no need for the person who accesses health care to be involved in billing and reclaim. Private insurance is only a minimal part of the overall health care system. Competitive practices such as advertising, other forms of self promotion activities are kept to a minimum thus maximizing the percentage of revenues that go directly towards care. In general, costs are paid through funding from income taxes although three provinces also impose a fixed monthly premium which may be waived or reduced for those on low incomes. There are no deductibles on basic health care and co-pays are extremely low or non-existent (supplemental insurance such as Fair Pharmacare may have deductibles, depending on income).
In Canada you have had nationalized health care in some form since the 1960's. Major revisions in 1984 and 1999.

The US health bill is not nationalized health care as you have it. It is a small step in that direction but is a bandaid. My protest of the bill that passed is not anti socialist but anti half-assed measures. Either our government needs to do as Canada and completely take over health care or make changes to the existing system to make it better. This bill doesn't do either.

It's a half measure to make liberal politico's feel they accomplished something. It does nothing to reduce health care costs for the majority of US citizens. It does nothing to address health care costs increasing at 3-4 times inflation. Yes it does bring insurance to some that did not have insurance before but this bill creates nothing like the health care system you enjoy.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:47 PM   #94
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we could probably make it by cutting our military budget by a single percentile...
of course, take money away from our national defense budget in a time of war, excellent idea you have there genius. Then the N. Koreans or Chinese or whoever the **** else can swoop in and take care of eliminating our government for us....Seriously the stupidest thing I've read on this stie in a while, at least since the Mouglie incident.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:49 PM   #95
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what is it exactly that you guys dont like about the bill?

* giving healthcare to people with preexisting conditions?

So, if this were like one of those total car coverage plans, it would work? I have a car with a busted tranny or diff, and I sign up for the complete powertrain warranty, and they give me a new transmission, right? Sure, that's a good way for the insurance to stay in business. The way our gov't works, this is exactly the way they'll do it, and take the money from me to pay for it. The cost of taxes to pay for others is infringing on my right to happiness.

If health insurance was more like car insurance, it might work. You don't make a claim for a door ding, or a flat tire. But a collision or broken windshield, you do. The minor stuff (like doctor visits) you cover yourself, and only make a claim for hospitalization and operations.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:50 PM   #96
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of course, take money away from our national defense budget in a time of war, excellent idea you have there genius. Then the N. Koreans or Chinese or whoever the **** else can swoop in and take care of eliminating our government for us....Seriously the stupidest thing I've read on this stie in a while, at least since the Mouglie incident.
cause i totally want to be dying by some domestic made fatal injury (or financially there after) while my *** is being "protected" in the middle east.

do you have any idea how LARGE the military budget is?
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:51 PM   #97
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cause i totally want to be dying by some domestic made fatal injury while my *** is being "protected" in the middle east.
I think you'd fit in pretty well over here just south west of me in the little country called France. Have at it.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:52 PM   #98
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More to the point, Obama has already cut a lot of the really pricey whiz-bang stuff, which I support perosnally. We need to spend more of our military budget of relatively simple and effective systems (body armor, drones, etc) and less on startwars stuff.

Back to the point, the militray budget is getting more streamlined and once the Afganis are squared away will likely go way down. It still wont pay for everything. This country has been spending like drunken sailors (no offense Navy guys) for the last 2.5 administrations.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:54 PM   #99
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More to the point, Obama has already cut a lot of the really pricey whiz-bang stuff, which I support perosnally. We need to spend more of our military budget of relatively simple and effective systems (body armor, drones, etc) and less on startwars stuff.

Back to the point, the militray budget is getting more streamlined and once the Afganis are squared away will likely go way down. It still wont pay for everything. This country has been spending like drunken sailors (no offense Navy guys) for the last 2.5 administrations.
You do realize how much stuff comes out of military "star wars" research, correct? This fancy pants thing I've been hearing a lot more about lately was developed by the US Military, I forget what they call it exactly, everybody says it's crazy and expensive and pointless....internet maybe? Yea, yea I think that's what it's called.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:57 PM   #100
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back on topic, we are discussing health care, not war.
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