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Old 10-18-2010, 01:06 PM   #121
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It is most likely my intake manifold Sav, the runners are extremely short. I actually started researching design and runner length last night. I am sure if I change my intake manifold, or at least make my runners longer it will change my power curve dramatically. I will post my last set up with my stock intake manifold today to show you the difference.

EDIT: Sav, also you said he is running a 2L well I think it makes a huge difference, he is running a much smaller turbo than I and has a lot more displacement. If you look at that other guy (not sure of his user name) he ran a 3076R on a 1.6L and it was very laggy. I think this more than accounts for 1,000 difference in spool. My turbo spools just as fast as a GT35R w/ a billet wheel.

Also, those tests are from a 2.3L Audi which is a lot bigger than my motor and they're getting full boost at 4,500 with the 5857, I am getting full boost about 600 RPM later which seems good to me. So it adds up with the post about eliminator also, I think it's just turbo sizing and I will not make mid-range power because I do not get into boost until later in the RPM band, plus I am running off the wastegate which cannot help spool.

Now with all things said, I still make more power then eliminator per psi I think. He made a little over 500 w/23 psi on a dynojet. I will easily match that if not surpass that once my billet wheels gets into its sweet spot, billets love boost and I have hardly got into it's efficiency range. I really don't care too much about mid-range power. I mostly care about upper-RPM power, peak power for the simple fact that I do not like breaking stuff for 1, and two, that's where I spend all of my time when I am beating/racing on the car, driving around day to day it isn't laggy at all seems to have a lot of throttle response etc, and I am very happy with it.

I did decide to ditch the idea of a PRO efi--for now, and have my mind set on my trans and a few other little things. I think you guys where very right when it came to it be over board, but then again I still might use it in the future if I decide to go crazy with my motor and try to make 700+ whp or something, which is very possible.

Last edited by jtothawhat; 10-18-2010 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:13 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
When I see the dyno graphs, it does look to me like jtothawhat's timing and or fuel settings need work on the lower end.

jtothawhat..Shim under lifters are very light weight lifters with shims that go between a post and the valvestem underneath the lifter. On a 99 solid lifter, you can see how the shim sits on top of the lifter. The cam comes in contact with the shim first. 1.6 hydralic lifters would look like a shim under lifter if you just pull the valve cover and look in. You would have to pull the cam and lifter and flip the lifter upside down. It would be much lighter too.

Also, I am suprised that you do not have a damper yet. Do you have a good oil pump? What port work have you done to the head? Be careful and make sure you have all the safegaurds before you crank up the RPMs.

Man, I am on a short nose crank lol..I am using a HV oil pump though. Where do you get these shim under lifters? I know I have hydraulic lifters that's about it, as well as a ported and polished head.

I am going to tear down the motor once I get some more money saved up switch to a long nose, throw an ATI and billet oil gears and call it a day.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:15 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
I may just run E85 on this ECU and carry an extra 5 gallons in the trunk just in case
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I have a number in my head, which is 600 whp. So, in theory I will not be happy until I make it.
Forgive me for sounding ignorant if this has already been covered elsewhere, but have you considered water injection as an alternative to E85? It just occurs to me that water, even distilled water, is slightly more plentiful than anhydrous ethanol.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:23 PM   #124
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I actually had a kit and sold it, it just seems like too much extra stuff to possibly go wrong. Where as E85 you just fill up your tank, no need to worry about extra lines, things snapping off, clogged lines, running out of meth and/or water etc.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:29 PM   #125
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Ok, that's a fair assessment.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:55 PM   #126
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just put some distilled water in the gasoline, that should take care of the water injection, right?
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:08 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
Man, I am on a short nose crank lol..I am using a HV oil pump though. Where do you get these shim under lifters? I know I have hydraulic lifters that's about it, as well as a ported and polished head.

I am going to tear down the motor once I get some more money saved up switch to a long nose, throw an ATI and billet oil gears and call it a day.
I got the lifters from Mazda Motorsports. You have to have a team support number to do business with them, which means you have to compete in some kind of racing, and have a license or membership with a sanctioning body. You can probably go through a vendor that is already set up with them if you do not want to go through all that. Perhaps Webcam.

The cheapest way to do it is not to buy a shim under kit. It will bankrupt you. Buy the lifters first and install, measure the clearance between lifter and cam, subtract the required valve lash, then order the shims you need, and finally, install shims and remeasure. You will probably make a mistake or two, so be prepared to either grind down shims that are too thick (not that hard), or order some extras if some of the shims are too small.

Shim unders add some horsepower from idle to redline, and relieves stress to your valvesprings allowing higher RPMs.
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:24 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
Man, I am on a short nose crank lol..I am using a HV oil pump though. Where do you get these shim under lifters? I know I have hydraulic lifters that's about it, as well as a ported and polished head.

I am going to tear down the motor once I get some more money saved up switch to a long nose, throw an ATI and billet oil gears and call it a day.
Slightly off topic, but I could not find an actual build thread for you. What pistons and rods are you running?
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:25 PM   #129
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Running Wiseco pistons, and Carrillo H-Beam rods.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:22 PM   #130
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Your numbers are really, REALLY high. Which turbo are you running?

Also, which ECU are you running and why are you so sold on switching to the EFI?
I guess you and I are the only skeptical ones. 425 on 18 psi when the EVO guys need more psi to reach the same numbers with much better flowing heads and IMs (we're talking on this turbo). All on 93 octane.

I do find it humorous with the whole "on a dynojet, this would make x+50". Any dyno operator can my make a dyno read what they want. Yes, even the Mustang dyno guys. They have correction factors too.

If you guys want to be honest with yourselves, have the operator enter ZERO for the correction factor.

Frank
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:37 PM   #131
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I am skeptical, no doubt about it. 425whp on 18psi on a 1,6? Sure, if he was using his cams at 9,000rpm, but at 7,000rpm? I don't know man, I hate to spoil his bragging rights, but it doesn't sound right. I've seen a 1,6 on a 3071 pushing 25psi, and that only got him 360whp. Sure, no manifold and no cams, but jtothawhat isn't exactly spinning the hell out of the motor to take advantage of the cams and manifold.

Last edited by Reverant; 10-18-2010 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:42 PM   #132
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^^ I don't know what to tell you, be skeptical all you want. http://www.spracingonline.com/ is who tuned and dyno'd it, ask for Vince. This shop is home to some of the fastest Supras in the country. I will give anyone a ride in the area who wants one and they can tell you first hand. I made 381 whp on a dynojet with my previous set up with OBX 264 cams, stock intake manifold, and ETD shorty exhaust at 25 psi. I am going to take it to a dyno day coming up this weekend on a dynojet and I will post what make. I bet you I can make this set up do 500 whp on pump on a dynojet if I rev to 8,000 RPM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:49 PM   #133
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I made 381 whp on a dynojet with my previous set up with OBX 264 cams, stock intake manifold, and ETD shorty exhaust at 25 psi.
That is absolutely possible and I wouldn't be skeptical about it at all.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:58 PM   #134
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That is absolutely possible and I wouldn't be skeptical about it at all.
Don't know what to tell you then bud...

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Old 10-18-2010, 04:10 PM   #135
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I guess you and I are the only skeptical ones. 425 on 18 psi when the EVO guys need more psi to reach the same numbers with much better flowing heads and IMs (we're talking on this turbo). All on 93 octane.

I do find it humorous with the whole "on a dynojet, this would make x+50". Any dyno operator can my make a dyno read what they want. Yes, even the Mustang dyno guys. They have correction factors too.

If you guys want to be honest with yourselves, have the operator enter ZERO for the correction factor.

Frank
You sound like you're hating for no reason, no their IM do not flow better than mine stock. And a built Evo, with a ported head, Kelford cams, upgraded turbo etc have no problem making what I did at that boost level, the thing is is no one runs my boost level on an Evo. I know enough about Evo's to know you're pulling this information out of your ***; Bad Bish went 9's on pump gas, Evo's have made over 600 whp on PUMP.

If you want to pay for dyno time, send me to your dyno of choice.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:11 PM   #136
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Seriously, if you are happy with the way your car performs, then there's no dyno sheet to show that. Enjoy your car man and don't let my skepticism ruin your joy. I managed to get 400whp off a built 1,8 running on a 2871 and 23psi and people were telling me "NOT POSSIBLE", so I feel for you, even though I am the one who has the doubt, lol.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:13 PM   #137
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Seriously, if you are happy with the way your car performs, then there's no dyno sheet to show that. Enjoy your car man and don't let my skepticism ruin your joy. I managed to get 400whp off a built 1,8 running on a 2871 and 23psi and people were telling me "NOT POSSIBLE", so I feel for you, even though I am the one who has the doubt, lol.

How do you have doubt if you just told me you made 400 whp with a smaller turbo, most likely a less flowing exhaust manifold, and a stock intake manifold assuming, without cams?
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:24 PM   #138
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The turbo is rated for that horsepower and actually within the sweet spot of the map, we run 5psi higher than you on a ~1890cc engine and made that power at 7400rpm on a VVT engine. The timing was pretty aggressive too.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:59 PM   #139
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Reverant, he's lined up for top end power through and through. Ramhorn manifold, PTE5857 (more top-end flow than a GT3076R), super-short runner intake manifold, big cams.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:02 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by fmowry View Post
I guess you and I are the only skeptical ones. 425 on 18 psi when the EVO guys need more psi to reach the same numbers with much better flowing heads and IMs (we're talking on this turbo). All on 93 octane.
Ok so I was skeptical at first too but then I did some math:

So let's say 18psi + GT3076 (sorta a PT5857) + 1.9L = about 380hp.
Subtract 11% for a 1.7L: 380hp - 42hp = about 338hp

So that's the baseline.

Now add in:

20hp for intakemani +338hp = 368hp
20hp for cams + 368hp = 388hp
20hp for supernice long tubular exhaustmani + 388hp = 408hp

That's not including any psi efficiency gains of the billet vs. a standard cast compressor wheel.

So, with all of those things added in, I think that it is very possible. When I dyno tune in a few weeks I will see what I can get with my stock intake and log mani and stock cams and 1.9 at 18psi. I'm guessing it will be less.
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