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Old 10-18-2010, 05:05 PM   #141
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Haters gonna hate.


If you have time post a full mod list assuming you don't have a build thread.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:06 PM   #142
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Now, if we do a $ per hp analysis for his current boost level, well, I think it's cheaper to turn up the boost to get the same dyno #s. That's why I have no intake, no cams, no badass exhaustmani now. I will ***** my 3071 for all it's got. Thing is though, as he adds more boost he will see even greater returns on the efficiency of the setup. I really want to see 28psi on his car.
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Old 10-18-2010, 06:42 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
It is most likely my intake manifold Sav, the runners are extremely short. I actually started researching design and runner length last night. I am sure if I change my intake manifold, or at least make my runners longer it will change my power curve dramatically. I will post my last set up with my stock intake manifold today to show you the difference.
Please do, that would be a very interesting comparo. The stock IM blows *** up top, but it does make good power under ~5000 or so.

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EDIT: Sav, also you said he is running a 2L well I think it makes a huge difference
Not that big of a difference. You're 1100rpm down on JayL, who has ~200cc of displacement and basically the same sized turbo (3076R) - FM shows the difference as being about half that between a 1.6/1.8 or 1.8/2.0.

Look at the differences as you go larger and larger on the turbo - slight drops in spool in exchange for big jumps in power. You aren't even in the ballpark, though.

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Quote:
Also, those tests are from a 2.3L Audi which is a lot bigger than my motor and they're getting full boost at 4,500 with the 5857, I am getting full boost about 600 RPM later which seems good to me. So it adds up with the post about eliminator also, I think it's just turbo sizing and I will not make mid-range power because I do not get into boost until later in the RPM band, plus I am running off the wastegate which cannot help spool.
That thread was just to compare the differences between your turbo and turbos which we are more familiar with (30Rs). Comparing a 5-cylinder 2.3 Audi to a 1.6 liter 4 cylinder is pretty useless, I agree.

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Now with all things said, I still make more power then eliminator per psi I think.
So what? If I had a magical turbo that made 400whp and 400wtq at 50psi, but I was making 200wtq at 2500rpm and 400wtq at 3500rpm, would you write the setup off because "you're making more power per PSI?" No. Boost pressure is a totally arbitrary measurement of intake manifold restriction. It's nice because it correlates fairly closely with flow when you are comparing the same setup at two different boost levels, or the same turbo on two different setups, but any other comparison is utterly useless.
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Old 10-18-2010, 06:45 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Boost pressure is a totally arbitrary measurement of intake manifold restriction. It's nice because it correlates fairly closely with flow when you are comparing the same setup at two different boost levels, or the same turbo on two different setups, but any other comparison is utterly useless.
Agree, mostly. More like a black box is how I look at it. So things past the intake mani also have an effect.
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Old 10-18-2010, 06:45 PM   #145
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do want video
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:56 PM   #146
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Sav here is my last dyno.

This is 15 psi pump gas, my last set-up above is comparing to 25 PSI on leaded 110
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:59 PM   #147
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Every time a dyno plot is printed with MPH on the x-axis, God kills a kitten. What gear ratio/tranny/gear were your pulls done in?
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:07 PM   #148
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4th gear, 4.10 in the rear 5 speed...I posted another sheet under that one with RPM, if you could compare this one with my new one in excel that'd be awesome!
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:24 PM   #149
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Something is still off. Either the turbo is way out of its efficiency range or the cams are killing it or something.

Come to think of it, it could be the cams, actually. I have ctdriftna's numbers in that spreadsheet. His cams are :


integral r3 intake 295 duration @ .490 lift
r1 exhaust 282 duration @ .455 lift (i think)


He said something about boost control issues as well, though.

Here's his numbers on the chart. I left JayL's line on there just as a reference to a setup that IMO makes good midrange AND top end power.

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So maybe high-duration cams = shitty midrange? Calling Jason_C and jkav, time for a discussion on the effects of overlap and duration on turbine inlet pressure.
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:36 PM   #150
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Sounds like ctdrafta is having the exact problem as me. I have also have a 13.5 spring, and I am seeing 18 psi, that could also be a problem. I don't think it is the cams because I have a similar curve with my last set up and the cams where different? I was thinking the runners are too short, by adding another few inches to my runners I would think I would shift my power-band to the left quite a bit.

What is strange is I am making over 30 whp more than my last set-up but my torque barely went up?
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:43 PM   #151
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Do you think you could do a datalog of a pull? Even on the street from 2000-7500 in 4th gear would be fine. Boost, rpm, afr, timing, etc...would tell us a lot.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:15 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
Sounds like ctdrafta is having the exact problem as me. I have also have a 13.5 spring, and I am seeing 18 psi, that could also be a problem. I don't think it is the cams because I have a similar curve with my last set up and the cams where different? I was thinking the runners are too short, by adding another few inches to my runners I would think I would shift my power-band to the left quite a bit.

What is strange is I am making over 30 whp more than my last set-up but my torque barely went up?
Yah you want the spring to match your boost target as closely as possible so you will spool up as quickly as possible. Even if you have a MBC/EBC you will be limited by your spring.
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:32 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
You sound like you're hating for no reason, no their IM do not flow better than mine stock. And a built Evo, with a ported head, Kelford cams, upgraded turbo etc have no problem making what I did at that boost level, the thing is is no one runs my boost level on an Evo. I know enough about Evo's to know you're pulling this information out of your ***; Bad Bish went 9's on pump gas, Evo's have made over 600 whp on PUMP.

If you want to pay for dyno time, send me to your dyno of choice.
Hating for no reason? The reason I'm "hating" is you put up a suspiciously high output number on a suspiciously low amount of boost.

You obviously haven't been around the car scene or posting dynos to forums that long have you? Any other forum that has regular dyno postings would have people questioning your numbers. A quick google on your turbo shows nobody with larger motors and more boost making your numbers.

You know enough about Evos yet you didn't know that a 38mm EWG is plenty big for your output level? And you don't know how to read a dyno chart and understand the difference between area under the curve vs peaky "bragging rights only" dyno chart?

I was big into DSMs while you were still in diapers. Evo heads flow better than any worked 1.6 head ever will. I had a built 1.6 before you owned a Miata. Granted I didn't have an inappropriately sized turbo for the 1.6 that spooled that was ridiculously peaky on mine but you get my point.

What do you gain on a worked 1.6 head with larger valves and good porting over a stock 1.6 head, 40 cfm (which is about %25)? That gets you to about the flow of a stock 1.8 which is around 210 cfm. Still more than 50 cfm short of any DSM or EVO bone stock head.

While I'm not poor I have no desire to pay for you to prove me wrong. If I did, I'd send you over to P&L Motorsports who doesn't use a correction factor on the dynojet and let you do a pull and have Jorge Carillo get a log of your tune.

Sorry that everyone here isn't going to stroke your wiener.
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:44 AM   #154
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You know, all this talk and comparison is absolutely useless until jtothawhat gets the car prepared to make a high rpm dyno pull.

jtothawhat... if you are not in the position to make all the corrections necessary to spin the motor to 8500, you may consider installing a milder camshaft that is designed to work in the power range that your motor can safely turn to.

The other option is to experiment with cam timing to try to shift the power band to a lower rpm. However, your turbo variable will make that tricky. I would think that to make the turbo really work with your small discplacement, it would require high rpms. The dyno graphs seem to point to that reality.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:02 PM   #155
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Miata2fast, I am going to keep things how they are for the simple fact that it is winter soon, the car is going to sleep for a few months making it pointless to change anything now, plus I am way over my budget for this car, this year. The motor will be torn down, I will replace the crank, put billet oil pump gears, ATI dampener and check the piston rings. While that's being done my trans will all be getting completed, I am still contemplating on going to a RX7 rear end due to the fact DSS makes axles for them.

If I rev my car to 8,500 the cars graph will look a lot better, simply for the fact that where will be more area under the curve with an extended power-band. My car is going to be tuned for about 30 pounds of boost +/- with E85 and what ever number I end up with I will be happy with.

fmowery I will not even comment on your lack of reading comprehension. Yes, you're the car god and know everything--at the end of the day I still make more money then you. Simple facts though for your viewing pleasure:

-What built motor evo runs a 38MM wastegate alone? NONE
-Show me a dyno where an Evo was running 18 pounds of boost? NONE, WHY? Because they run 19.4 STOCK!

And what the hell do I need correction factor for?! Im at sea-level and it is 50 degrees outside But tell that to guys in Colorado that correction factor isn't need when there is a lot less oxygen in the air at 7,000+ feet.



For the record, I do not only care about peak numbers, however, I do race the car straight line and when racing I do not need power to exit out of turns; slow down at all; or downshift. You're in that M.net mentality and need to get the hell out of it. 5857 is not a miss matched turbo for my goals I don't understand how it would be when my goal is 600 whp, and that's what they're rated at? When the hell am I under 6,000 for a drag race? NEVER So how about you get the hell out of my thread. Also, P&L Motorsports has a lot of record holders, and fast cars coming out of there, right? Since you want to even mention that name next to the shop you're calling out Sound Performance which has been in business 11 years longer, turned out 100's of 1000 whp cars, record holders, and some of the fastest street cars in the country.




And for Sav, and everyone else who actually knows what the hell they're talking about I would like to thank you.. XOXOXO I did find a solution to the problem http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...ool_Valve/3643 I am going to buy that this winter.

Last edited by jtothawhat; 10-19-2010 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:11 PM   #156
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rent is 2 damn high
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:29 PM   #157
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True story, but either way full boost at 5,100 RPM isn't that bad, for me, anyways.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:42 PM   #158
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Bigger turbos... with lower boost... typically require bigger wastegates to control boost.

Majority in the Miata world never see that combination
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:36 PM   #159
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Splitime you can test drive my car when ever you want too, I actually still have to drop off your CAS so let me know when you're free.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:37 PM   #160
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The comment about evo's running 19psi stock is kinda stupid though. when running a huge turbo 19psi isn't the same 19psi it was on teh stocker.

Yes I have seen evo's running only 18psi before. Its not common on a built big turbo evo but its not completely out of the question.
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