K series Miata swap - Page 17 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-09-2014, 05:32 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by halfdemonpyro View Post
I could afford the kit fairly easily, its the engine and associated components that will take me time to collect...
this is what stopped me from nabbing a rotary kit, it wasnt the cost but more the gathering of parts. I'm hoping a company I contacted that makes one will soon offer a kit including the engine and all parts. Affording a kit isn't the issue its just I hate hunting for parts.

I'd be very interested in a bolt in K series kit if all I had to do was order it and install as V8's are the only option for that kinda kit at the moment that I've found.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:01 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by magicdc2 View Post
well lucky for me, my market isn't just people in this thread. I don't need to sell a ton of these things to make it worth my while, and it will definitely take some time for interest to build, as with any product like this.



$7-8k cost for the full swap is pretty realistic, if you do the work yourself.

As far as your list, here is what it comes down to:
spend 7-8k to build a 170-180whp Miata motor
or:
spend 7-8k to swap in a stock Honda motor that makes 220-230whp, and makes 300+ when fully built, with a much better powerband and flat torque curve. and like you said, you blow it up and you pick up another longblock from a junkyard and swap it in an afternoon.

On the race track, engines are consumables. I'm usually having the most fun when those consumables are as cheap as possible.
It's not a knock on you, and you seem pretty reasonable about the whole thing, but beating the hell out a K24 swap has a sample size of n=1. I'm really, really interested in it but I don't want to pay 7-8k to go through all of the growing pains and work out the kinks. I did a VVT swap, which is well documented and has a decent amount of people running them, and I still had issues that people had never encountered before.

I think that the K24 swap is brilliant in theory, I just don't want to work out the kinks.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:30 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by foxyroadster View Post
this is what stopped me from nabbing a rotary kit, it wasnt the cost but more the gathering of parts. I'm hoping a company I contacted that makes one will soon offer a kit including the engine and all parts. Affording a kit isn't the issue its just I hate hunting for parts.

I'd be very interested in a bolt in K series kit if all I had to do was order it and install as V8's are the only option for that kinda kit at the moment that I've found.
Making a full drop-in kit with a brand new engine would be easy. If someone wants to spend 16k, I'll give you 100% of what you need, including a rebuilt, high compression k24 monster of a motor.

Is there really a market for this? FM seems to think so with their LS conversion, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
It's not a knock on you, and you seem pretty reasonable about the whole thing, but beating the hell out a K24 swap has a sample size of n=1. I'm really, really interested in it but I don't want to pay 7-8k to go through all of the growing pains and work out the kinks. I did a VVT swap, which is well documented and has a decent amount of people running them, and I still had issues that people had never encountered before.

I think that the K24 swap is brilliant in theory, I just don't want to work out the kinks.
Hey no worries, the swap may not be for you, but maybe in the future. Some people enjoy being a part of something new and figuring it out, others dont. I've got a couple guys with miata shells and motors sitting there waiting for this to be available.

The nice thing is that K series engines are reliable, and I'm not the first to put one in a RWD car either. Bolting in and wiring a K series has been done a million times in every sort of weird chassis, I just took it further by actually using a cheap, readily available RWD chassis.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:49 AM   #324
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Yeah I also wanted to say that my earlier comment about real buyers for this wasn't a knock on you either. It's not for me, but that doesn't mean it isn't pretty cool, and more proper engine swap options for our cars is definitely a good thing. Heck, I'd take this swap over some stupid rotardry any day of the week.

I'm curious: are there any big power plans for the current swapped R&D car or are you simply going to flog the heck out of it and enjoy it in stock form? I ask because I know how easy it is to make power on a K powerplant, and with boost they are absolute monsters.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:59 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by magicdc2 View Post
Hey no worries, the swap may not be for you, but maybe in the future. Some people enjoy being a part of something new and figuring it out, others dont. I've got a couple guys with miata shells and motors sitting there waiting for this to be available.

The nice thing is that K series engines are reliable, and I'm not the first to put one in a RWD car either. Bolting in and wiring a K series has been done a million times in every sort of weird chassis, I just took it further by actually using a cheap, readily available RWD chassis.
Yeah, I have enough issues cropping up with my 140whp (hopefully soon 150whp) N/A. I don't think wiring is too bad, and if you're running a standalone EMS, it's pretty straightforward.

**** I don't want to deal with is like oil pump failures, weird things that might be catastrophic with the parts that you're making (oil pan rubbing/starving, etc), and then fitment crap. I'm definitely keeping it in mind because I love to blow money on stupid stuff (why hello there IRTBs) and who doesn't want to feel the VTEC kick in, yo?

I know enough about Hondas to make it seem like I know what I'm talking about, but would there be any issues with doing a K20/24 hybrid with this swap?
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:00 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by magicdc2 View Post
$7-8k cost for the full swap is pretty realistic, if you do the work yourself.

As far as your list, here is what it comes down to:
spend 7-8k to build a 170-180whp Miata motor
or:
spend 7-8k to swap in a stock Honda motor that makes 220-230whp, and makes 300+ when fully built, with a much better powerband and flat torque curve.
That sums it up pretty well. I think all of those options are going to be for track-oriented guys. For street guys, it's really hard to beat a turbo setup in terms of dollars-per-horsepower.

I'm probably a good candidate for this swap as I have been leaning more and more and more toward a naturally aspirated build. I had been eyeing a basic VVT swap, but the K-series is definitely intriguing because of the additional reliable power - although at additional costs in dollars and labor.
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:10 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
What year (year of car) can you pull a motor out of? The reason why i ask is for emissions.
The CR-V motors are getting pretty popular for K24 swaps, any since 2006 will do. A lot of guys are now foregoing the k20 head swap, and just using the CR-V head with cams, valve springs, etc.

Similar for the Accord K24.

So, if you're okay with a CR-V or Accord motor you have about a billion potential cars to choose from. Seriously, American Honda sells 300,000+ accords and 200,000+ cr-v's a year. The Accord and CR-V k24s are plentiful now, but will only get more and more plentiful (and cheaper and cheaper) as the years go on.


OP - What kind of oil baffling are you using? K20 oiling issues are pretty well known / common for serious track guys. We use aftermarket baffles made by Realtime Racing for the Grand AM Civics. On FWD applications, if you only use the stock baffling your almost guaranteed to have some oil starvation once you enter the R-compound race tire grip levels. I wonder if it would be better or worse in RWD applications.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:33 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
The CR-V motors are getting pretty popular for K24 swaps, any since 2006 will do. A lot of guys are now foregoing the k20 head swap, and just using the CR-V head with cams, valve springs, etc.

Similar for the Accord K24.

So, if you're okay with a CR-V or Accord motor you have about a billion potential cars to choose from. Seriously, American Honda sells 300,000+ accords and 200,000+ cr-v's a year. The Accord and CR-V k24s are plentiful now, but will only get more and more plentiful (and cheaper and cheaper) as the years go on.


OP - What kind of oil baffling are you using? K20 oiling issues are pretty well known / common for serious track guys. We use aftermarket baffles made by Realtime Racing for the Grand AM Civics. On FWD applications, if you only use the stock baffling your almost guaranteed to have some oil starvation once you enter the R-compound race tire grip levels. I wonder if it would be better or worse in RWD applications.
Yeah, the k24a1 (CRV) motor is awesome, and they are dime a dozen. Throw in some high comp pistons and vtec killer cams in there you you're making huge power.

I'm one of those "serious track guys" and I've been road racing a FWD k20 and k24 setup since 2010, and currently run a 15x10 front wheel with 245 Hoosier R80s, and aero, so you could say I've tested K oiling setups in situations with some grip.

I will say this for now - the custom pan is being made by one of the best aftermarket pan and baffle companies, and there will be no issues with the final design. Of course I will beat on it first (on slicks) before selling them.

Oil starvation should be less of a problem in a RWD application, because the oil won't slosh side to side as much. The K pump and pickup is nearly identical to an S2000. Look at the S2000 baffle designs vs. the K baffles. S2000 ones are MUCH simpler (no trap doors, etc).

So long story short, oil starvation is being taken into serious consideration as I lock down the final design for the pan and pickup. After all, if this setup is no good on the track I think its pointless.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:40 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Yeah I also wanted to say that my earlier comment about real buyers for this wasn't a knock on you either. It's not for me, but that doesn't mean it isn't pretty cool, and more proper engine swap options for our cars is definitely a good thing. Heck, I'd take this swap over some stupid rotardry any day of the week.

I'm curious: are there any big power plans for the current swapped R&D car or are you simply going to flog the heck out of it and enjoy it in stock form? I ask because I know how easy it is to make power on a K powerplant, and with boost they are absolute monsters.

In a Miata. Yuss.

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Old 01-09-2014, 08:16 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
I know enough about Hondas to make it seem like I know what I'm talking about, but would there be any issues with doing a K20/24 hybrid with this swap?
no that would work fine. Any engine setup done in a FWD Honda will fit this car. Except ITBs fit much better in the Miata

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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I'm curious: are there any big power plans for the current swapped R&D car or are you simply going to flog the heck out of it and enjoy it in stock form? I ask because I know how easy it is to make power on a K powerplant, and with boost they are absolute monsters.
Current R&D is tons of track abuse with the stock motor first. Once some kits are sold and this thing is a true reality, I'll probably build a 275-300 whp motor and go crazy. No plans to boost the car at any point, I think the beauty of this swap is that you don't need to boost it to go fast. That being said, I'm happy to help someone put a turbo K Miata together! I also think the stock Miata trans is better suited to an N/A build.

How much torque are you turbo kids putting through these transmissions, and in what environments?
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:26 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by magicdc2 View Post
How much torque are you turbo kids putting through these transmissions, and in what environments?
the 5 speeds normally break in all environments once you push over or even approach 250ftlbs. 6 speed take 300ftlbs with ease but seem to start to strip gears once you get to the 350ftlbs area. And there's a roundy roundy or drag bell housing with our bolt pattern on the engine side and a popular domestic v8 pattern on the tranny side that some people are starting to play with.
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:18 PM   #332
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If only there was a similar engine that already came coupled to a good, strong transmission designed for a RWD application.
I guess thats just too much to hope for.

But anyway. Im having a hard time beleiving this swap would save much, if any weight. From what Im seeing online these engines (BP/K/F) are all around the same weight.
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:51 PM   #333
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A friend and I lifted my 2000 BP engine out of the back of my truck, complete valve cover to oil pan (no ps pump or accessories). Did the same when my friend bought his k24. They felt to be similar weight. I'd need to throw them both on a scale to see exactness, but I'd say only a few pounds (maybe no more than 40lbs is my guess).
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:59 AM   #334
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If only there was a similar engine that already came coupled to a good, strong transmission designed for a RWD application.
I guess thats just too much to hope for.

But anyway. Im having a hard time beleiving this swap would save much, if any weight. From what Im seeing online these engines (BP/K/F) are all around the same weight.
No one is stopping you from doing an F20C swap, sir. I understand you think this is a pointless swap, and there is no point in trying to convince you otherwise, so please give it a rest.

A nicely built 280-300whp N/A K series isn't making anymore than 210-220wtq, so there is no need to upgrade from the Miata trans that already fits the chassis/PPF/driveshaft without modification (and by the way show me an N/A F20/22 that makes those kind of numbers).
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:01 AM   #335
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the 5 speeds normally break in all environments once you push over or even approach 250ftlbs. 6 speed take 300ftlbs with ease but seem to start to strip gears once you get to the 350ftlbs area. And there's a roundy roundy or drag bell housing with our bolt pattern on the engine side and a popular domestic v8 pattern on the tranny side that some people are starting to play with.
good info, thats similar numbers I got from some local miata guys before starting the swap. And so far everything works great.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:43 AM   #336
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5 speeds can break under stock power. They're kind of fragile, but 250hp is the number that gets thrown around a lot.

The 6-speed Aisin box holds up a lot better, but it's not uncommon to lose 4th gear if you're making power.

Last edited by Dunning Kruger Affect; 01-10-2014 at 09:52 AM. Reason: leafy is a pedantic moron
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:48 AM   #337
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Since when do 5 speeds break under stock power. I mean you can kill the 2nd gear synchro in them, but you can also **** up the shifter forks in a 6 speed. And HP doesnt break transmissions, torque does. The reason you see at lot of broken trannies at 250hp is because most people tune for a flat boost curve and the common turbo setups on our engines get into the 220-250ftlbs area when they're making 250hp.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:50 AM   #338
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Since when do 5 speeds break under stock power. I mean you can kill the 2nd gear synchro in them, but you can also **** up the shifter forks in a 6 speed. And HP doesnt break transmissions, torque does. The reason you see at lot of broken trannies at 250hp is because most people tune for a flat boost curve and the common turbo setups on our engines get into the 220-250ftlbs area when they're making 250hp.
Yes, you pedantic moron. However, you see 250hp with an implication that you're turbocharged and not making 140 ft-lbs like an F20C. Go use the search function. People have broken the 5 speed at stock or near stock power/torque. Not many, but it's possible.
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:52 AM   #339
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Yes, you pedantic moron. However, you see 250hp with an implication that you're turbocharged and not making 140 ft-lbs like an F20C. Go use the search function. People have broken the 5 speed at stock or near stock power/torque. Not many, but it's possible.
I could break an anvil if i tried hard enough.
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:17 PM   #340
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at any rate, I plan to keep my original 5 speed with 146k on it for testing. I plan on making about 190wtq and doing no drag racing. If it ever breaks, its a perfect excuse to upgrade to a 6 speed.
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