Anyone have any brake questions? - Page 8 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


General Miata Chat A place to talk about anything Miata

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-10-2014, 04:25 PM   #141
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Nice product placement and good segway! +1
i was either going to get a laugh, or everyone hate me. so i went for it hahah
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 06:44 AM   #142
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cedar City, UT
Posts: 2,769
Total Cats: 948
Default

Because I absolutely hate rust removal, and based on the DBA videos posted on cleaning the front hub surface to ensure tolerances are correct; would anodizing or zinc plating the front hubs last or even be worth it? I wouldn't do it for superficiality, but if it helped me avoid having to do rust removal, and it lasted, I'm game.

Granted, I realize that the hub would have to be torn down to the bare housings in order to not cause damage to the bearings.
Jeffbucc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 09:27 AM   #143
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffbucc View Post
Because I absolutely hate rust removal, and based on the DBA videos posted on cleaning the front hub surface to ensure tolerances are correct; would anodizing or zinc plating the front hubs last or even be worth it? I wouldn't do it for superficiality, but if it helped me avoid having to do rust removal, and it lasted, I'm game.

Granted, I realize that the hub would have to be torn down to the bare housings in order to not cause damage to the bearings.
If you could coat the surface without adding any thickness to the hub face then i don't see why not. although when the hub goes out your probably throwing a few hundred bucks worth of anodizing out with it. i have had customers grease the hubs to prevent rust. the problem with greasing the hubs is there will be dirt, or rocks picked up by your grease gun. when you sling the grease over the hub the peddles will get locked behind the rotor, causing lateral run out. I've seen some very expensive rotors get lateral run out right from the start because of in-proper installation.


I Get those foam sanding blocks from Home Depot Racing, hit the hub with wd-40, Sand for 5 min, and it's ready to go.

Last edited by OGRacing; 11-11-2014 at 09:45 AM.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 11:00 AM   #144
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default


Found this nice video From stop tech on how flexy Factory calipers are. before you start knocking the results member that this test is at room temperature, with a hand pump. Normal Brake system will see 1200-1500psi. at a race a calipers can see >600*
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2014, 09:07 AM   #145
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

anyone have any more questions?
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2014, 10:48 AM   #146
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: albion, mi
Posts: 288
Total Cats: 16
Default

Cost being a non issue,

What system would you spec for a 300 Whp 2400lb miata that sees limited track time, (4-5 events a year on dedicated slicks), few autocross on street tires rs3v2, and 10,000 miles of stretch use?

Only requirements are; e brake needs to be there, and I would prefer to keep the 6uls.

I'm good with swapping pads and rotors for the events, and I despise **** feel.
Low intial torque is great, but I'd like to keep modulation as well.
glade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2014, 05:15 PM   #147
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glade View Post
Cost being a non issue,

What system would you spec for a 300 Whp 2400lb miata that sees limited track time, (4-5 events a year on dedicated slicks), few autocross on street tires rs3v2, and 10,000 miles of stretch use?

Only requirements are; e brake needs to be there, and I would prefer to keep the 6uls.

I'm good with swapping pads and rotors for the events, and I despise **** feel.
Low intial torque is great, but I'd like to keep modulation as well.
The majority of crappy soft feel comes from the brake booster. to get a better feel i would switch to a manual MC. the other softness comes from the lines and calipers. As far as a good kit. i Would like to see a full PFC kit installed on a miata, but you would need to run steel 15" wheels to make it fit. it's also around 5k and i don't think anyone is going to do that. The rotor size - to - horse power ratio just regulates how long the rotor will last. yes chassis mass and driver usage will also play a roll. Generally you want as large of a rotor as will fit inside your wheel. I've found a good kit is the The trackspeed/V8 roadsters 11.75" rotor kit. that kit combined with the sport rotor rear upgrade works well. It has a nice balanced feel to it. With a Wilwood prop valve you can generate enough braking to rotate the car nicely.
track pads go the PFC 01 are a good fit for a high horsepower miata. With more hp your leaving the "momentum" classification behind, and starting to enter the GT car classification.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2014, 12:23 PM   #148
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girz0r
What do you make of this DBA 4000 Rotor failure? Factory defect?

DBA 4000 Rotor Failure at Phillip Island on Evo 9 - YouTube

My first questions are "What pad, what temp?"

But for it to snap off like that, it's hard fathom if a pad could be 'that' grippy.

Side note, I have some old DBA drilled/slotted rotors (HP Plus pads) on now, I had thought about getting DBA 4000s 6x6 slot rotors (non T-style) in the future. Should I be concerned?


You can see in the Picture. By the white arrows the difference in transfer layer thickness. the Dark blue is much thicker then the light blue. this is telling me the rotor is "coning". you can also see the inside 1/4 diameter the transfer layer is basically gone. so the rotor is coning outward towards the spokes of the wheel. when a rotor get's hot it wants to move. it will deflect towards the hottest side of the rotor, This deflection looks like the cone of a speaker and referred to as "coning". if you have cooling ducts, it will bend inward, no cooling ducts it will bend outward. this coning is telling me the rotor is under very heavy thermal Load, AKA it's really hot. when you get a fixed rotor like this it can fracture the mating surface. The opposite to a fixed rotor would be a floating rotor.
The red arrow you can clearly see the outline of a brake pad. it I would assume that is from factory ABS engagement. having a rotor at thermal capacity then hitting it with Factory ABS is a sure way to destroy a rotor.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 11:11 AM   #149
Junior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
calteg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 289
Total Cats: 16
Default

Alright, time to lob some stupid questions:

fixed caliper = sets of opposing pistons (?)
floating caliper = pistons on one side (?)

Educate me as to why its a terrible idea to do dynalights up front, then move my front calipers to the rear. I assume it won't even mount up, but there are probably a ton of brake bias issues I'm too ignorant to think of.

Several times you mention that steel wheels comprise part of your ideal brake setup. Why?
calteg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 01:37 PM   #150
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calteg View Post
Alright, time to lob some stupid questions:

fixed caliper = sets of opposing pistons (?)
floating caliper = pistons on one side (?)
yep. Fixed Caliper is as the tittle states. it has piston on both sides and the body of the caliper does not move.
Floating calipers, have pins and the body of the caliper slides on the pins.

Quote:
Educate me as to why its a terrible idea to do dynalights up front, then move my front calipers to the rear. I assume it won't even mount up, but there are probably a ton of brake bias issues I'm too ignorant to think of.
It’s a bad idea because of piston size. NOTE there are only 3 ways to increase TQ in a braking system.. Rotor size, hydraulic advantage, and Pad compound.

The oem front calipers have a 3.17^2” piston area. The stock rear calipers have a 1.25 dim Piston, that equates to 1.23^2” of area. The hydraulic advantage difference in percentage would be 83.68% increase.
so increasing a rotor size on the front from 10.5 to 11.75 is a 11% increase in front tq.
Decreasing caliper size (hydraulic advantage) from 3.17^2” (oem) to a dynalite 3^2” is a 5% reduction in front Tq
Assume you have matching pads front and rear. The 6% increase in front tq from a daylight 11.75” kit will not be enough to overcome the increased 85% of tq now in the rear.

Quote:
Several times you mention that steel wheels comprise part of your ideal brake setup. Why?
That’s easy one. Let’s take it from the top. A car that is for sale to the general public from a major manufacture is engineered to be cheap to mass produce. It might have sporting features but motorsports is not the intent. 1 person out of 800,000 might buy a car new and go race it. So manufactures don’t care about that guy. So now let’s take a car and triple the power. 95 hp miata -> 285hp. everything that was engineered on that OEM chassis is now redundant. Making a stock braking system cope with 3x the amount of energy is pointless, and then take it to the track. When a miata has 300hp it is no longer a Miata you need to start thinking like a GT car.
This 11” brake rotor stuff is not going to do the job. This is why you hear so many complaints about the dynalites being sub-par, the system is being overloaded. Thankfully we can use parts off circle track cars. They have similar power to us and have about 300-400 extra lbs. so the braking components are cheap. But they use steel wheels. In order to fit a 12” rotor and 11.75” rotor rear we will need a set of steel wheels. And if someone has a 400 hp monster with 275 slicks that is exactly what they need.

for the record A Corvette PFC BBK retails for around 7-8k depending on options. A PFC BBK for a circle track car is 4000. That’s 4 monoblock calipers with massive pistons, floating rotors, the works! But we need a steel wheel to fit it onto a miata.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 02:06 PM   #151
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
cyotani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Azusa, CA
Posts: 1,371
Total Cats: 80
Default

Is there any particular caliper grease you recommend for lubing the float pins? Will an autozone part be okay or should I be looking for a more performance oriented product that can withstand higher temps. This would be for 1.8 brakes using hawk hp+
cyotani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 03:06 PM   #152
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyotani View Post
Is there any particular caliper grease you recommend for lubing the float pins? Will an autozone part be okay or should I be looking for a more performance oriented product that can withstand higher temps. This would be for 1.8 brakes using hawk hp+
i use antiseeze. i think in another thread we discussed how one bottle will last you 200 years.

Last edited by OGRacing; 11-19-2014 at 03:26 PM.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 01:33 AM   #153
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 798
Total Cats: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
anyone have any more questions?
OK, I'll bite.

Caliper flex has been discussed in their thread and the Dynalite has been mentioned to be a pretty flexy caliper. There have also been discussions here on MT regarding using the Dynapro radial mount with custom brackets. Do you have thoughts regarding the quality of the two calipers and the pad life someone could expect in apples to apples track use?

My car is ~2,300 pounds, ~300whp on NT-01s with Aero and is trailered to track days and occasional time trials. I'm using the complete Mazdaspeed braking system (1990 chassis) including the ABS, 15/16" master and run XP12 or better Carbotechs with good results. I have never been able fade the brakes and feel like I have good modulation. There are very few cars on the track I don't devour under braking including most Miatas.

I get a bit of pad taper and the front pads generally last 5 or 6 days which is a bargain compared to consumables on a lot of common track day cars but I'm greedy. I'd like more pad life and would really like a fixed caliper compared to the OEM sliders.

My car is pretty typical in weight and power output so I'm sure plenty of people would be curious to hear your recommendations on the best OTS brake setup for this application. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the community!
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 08:43 AM   #154
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,391
Total Cats: 1,252
Default

Mr. Hyde, there was a huge difference in both feel and braking capacity when switching to the V8Roadsters 11.75/Dynalite kit (BTW, this is very similar to 949 kit but different from Trackspeed kit from what I understand). I graduated up from stock calipers and rotors to 11 inch Corrado rotors, and then to this. The feel is significantly better.

I am also using the PF01 pads sourced from OG Racing right now. Pads for the Dynalite are much cheaper than for stock calipers. The PF01 compound doesn't have huge initial bite and also doesn't ramp up in torque as it gets hotter, but rather gives a linear increase in braking. More pressure equals more braking. They are very controllable in that regard. I find myself not locking up a wheel as easily as I did with other pads and the flexy stock calipers which seemed to be very vague now that I have upgraded.
sixshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 10:49 AM   #155
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 390
Total Cats: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calteg View Post
Several times you mention that steel wheels comprise part of your ideal brake setup. Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
That’s easy one.
...
When a miata has 300hp it is no longer a Miata you need to start thinking like a GT car.
This 11” brake rotor stuff is not going to do the job. This is why you hear so many complaints about the dynalites being sub-par, the system is being overloaded. Thankfully we can use parts off circle track cars. They have similar power to us and have about 300-400 extra lbs. so the braking components are cheap. But they use steel wheels. In order to fit a 12” rotor and 11.75” rotor rear we will need a set of steel wheels. And if someone has a 400 hp monster with 275 slicks that is exactly what they need.

for the record A Corvette PFC BBK retails for around 7-8k depending on options. A PFC BBK for a circle track car is 4000. That’s 4 monoblock calipers with massive pistons, floating rotors, the works! But we need a steel wheel to fit it onto a miata.
What is it about a steel wheel that allows it to work with bigger brakes? Thinner barrel? Different offset? Couldn't an aluminum wheel of the same diameter be designed to fit, thereby retaining the aesthetic and unsprung weight benefits?
DeerHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:25 PM   #156
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeerHunter View Post
What is it about a steel wheel that allows it to work with bigger brakes? Thinner barrel? Different offset? Couldn't an aluminum wheel of the same diameter be designed to fit, thereby retaining the aesthetic and unsprung weight benefits?
steel needs less material. so the inner barrel is larger. NASCAR runs 15" wheels and we fit a massive PFC 6 piston caliper with 323mm rotor in those. our miatas are lucky to get a 299mm rotor and a dinky wilwood caliper in a aluminum 15" wheel.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:27 PM   #157
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Mr. Hyde, there was a huge difference in both feel and braking capacity when switching to the V8Roadsters 11.75/Dynalite kit (BTW, this is very similar to 949 kit but different from Trackspeed kit from what I understand). I graduated up from stock calipers and rotors to 11 inch Corrado rotors, and then to this. The feel is significantly better.

I am also using the PF01 pads sourced from OG Racing right now. Pads for the Dynalite are much cheaper than for stock calipers. The PF01 compound doesn't have huge initial bite and also doesn't ramp up in torque as it gets hotter, but rather gives a linear increase in braking. More pressure equals more braking. They are very controllable in that regard. I find myself not locking up a wheel as easily as I did with other pads and the flexy stock calipers which seemed to be very vague now that I have upgraded.
that's going into my signature. finally people are getting it.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 04:31 PM   #158
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,391
Total Cats: 1,252
Default

I guess I sounded like an advertisement. Honest opinions are honest.
sixshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 05:30 PM   #159
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
OGRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,650
Total Cats: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
I guess I sounded like an advertisement. Honest opinions are honest.
no advertisement about it. Straight and simple facts.
OGRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2014, 02:06 AM   #160
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 798
Total Cats: 25
Default

I'm sold on the merits of a BBK. How about my question on the Dynapro vs. Dynalite? I want things stiff...

...that's what she said!
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 55 05-06-2017 08:18 PM
15x10 - 15x11 6UL @ 949 Racing emilio700 Wheels and Tires 148 04-25-2017 09:41 AM
1994 Spec Miata Race Car SM/SM2/SSM For Sale Quinn Cars for sale/trade 6 10-23-2016 07:58 AM
Raleigh: Fiberglass headlight scope, 1.6L ECU, AFM, Hardtop latches, more bigmackloud Miata parts for sale/trade 9 11-07-2015 11:58 PM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 12:45 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:33 AM.