No, no, no ,no and no. Stop thinking so hard about it. I instantly regret ever mentioning it in reference to the S2000 rear toe steer in the other thread. can o worms and I deserve the wrath. My apologies.
Seriously, forget I said it.

Just buy an ND, throw whatever lowering stuff you like on there, add some toe in on the rear and go have fun.

Edit: If you put 15's on an ND I'll neg prop you every time you post from now on I swear.

So I should run 14's? Got it.

Even if I buy some 15x9 6UL's from you? :giggle:

Thanks for all the explanation to someone who has enough money to buy things, but is not smart enough to do things right...

Just to add gas to the fire, the NC had toe out under droop IIRC which made it incredibly sketchy drive in high speed corners where the car gets unloaded. The ND's geometry change made this significantly more compliant.

Not doubting Emilio's ability, but the turnaround for the ND Xidas was extremely quick. I'm sure that given some time, we'll see a similar type of development (in terms of change, not the actual technology/engineering) that we saw between the first and second generations of the NA/NB Xidas. No one will argue that the Gen 1 is an inherently bad setup; it's just that the Gen 2s are that much better. The ND is a good car and the pointy-end race technology will only make it better over time.

this was more political if anything...

We switched suppliers between G1 and G2 Xidas for the NA/NB. The ND's rear toe steer is only an issue when you have a lot of rear wheel travel mid corner, as you would with stock suspension. So static ride height is not an issue. The idea is to simply limit how much the ND can pitch during a turn to limit toe change. No amount of shock tuning will change toe steer. So all the supposition here that the current ND Xida is "not finished" is incorrect. They do no need additional development time. Recall, we had a car to begin work Q1/15 and didn't release the kit until Q1/16.

The car works as is, it just gives up a bit more ride quality than the NA/NB does with a Sport or Race setup. Don't overthink it.

Mazda may choose to tone down the rear steer over the next few years. That would require a new rear aluminum upright casting. If they do that, you can run your current ND Xidas a few clicks softer and run less toe in to take advantage. Simple.

The title of this thread briefly reverted to "miata.net-like discussion thread" due to a cache leak, or perhaps Russian spies. The bug appears to have been fixed.

Good stuff. Didn't mean to cast some sort of doubt of THERE'S GONNA BE SOMETHING AROUND THE CORNER, but I was just recalling that the double digressive piston in a ~$2000 coilover was a bit of a game changer.

So when Mazda releases the new softer ND, do I get to brag like the SW20, AP1, and NSX guys about how hardcore I am?

e: real question, what FSB are you running? I'm thinking about picking up the Karcepts bar (lmao $575 for a sway bar) so I can continue my CS dominance locally.

Corksport 1.125 hollow front, 14mm autoexe rear.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...758e66d3fe.jpg

^^

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...06/989/c80.gif

Needs a NSFW tag.

Emilio,
Would love to know how much of a difference the rear diffuser makes. Data would be a plus but your opinion is appreciated

Goodwin and Emilio were both running the diffuser, from what I have seen. Hopefully it makes a noticeable difference! I so want to run a center exhaust with that thing, though.

I also just saw picture on FB of Jackson Racing's car. They have what appears to be an APR rear wing on it and a fairly large chin spoiler. I sure hope they are developing a Rotrex kit!!

Tech data on Velox ND rear diffuser

Hopefully the guys will start developing more aero parts for the ND like they have with the Frisbee twins.

From the weekend. Will post more pics as we get them collected.

http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/downlo...hp?id=3967&t=1

http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/downlo...hp?id=3964&t=1

Picked up the first production sample of the DG hardtop on the way to Laguna Seca. In carbon fiber of course. New hotness molded and sealed rear window is a great touch.

http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/downlo...hp?id=3953&t=1

http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/downlo...hp?id=3954&t=1

That hardtop looks great! I know what the next purchase for my ND will be.....

Oh yeah, the ND thread. That's where I should have posted this...



I must say, I am smitten.

Beryllium 6ULs in the 17x9 variety.

http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/downlo...hp?id=3962&t=1

This is REALLY making me want an ND. Maybe I will wait until the dead of winter and see what the Mazda dealership will do to move a White Club model.

Emilio, have you started working on an oil cooler setup yet? I know you mentioned earlier in the thread the car suffers from very high oil temps under track use.

Also, have you guys checked the injector duty cycle to see if an E85 tune is possible without swapping to larger injectors/fuel pump?

No and no. With the inherent system capacity of DI, I would be very surprised if it couldn't handle E85 however. We're talking over 20k psi.

Knowing how det limited the current car is on CA91, I'd expect a near F/I level jump in power on E85. The initial experimental tune we did with E85 last year proved to be outside our tuners scope at the time. Since then more progress has been made. The usage profile of our project car precludes
E85, its just not practical nor needed. For autocrossers though, it's going to be a deal breaker. The highest placed STR ND at Solo nats a few weeks was pretty close to the S2K CR's. Another 15~20 whp and the OS Giken we're working on might bridge the gap.

Hopefully TSE will find time to do an oil cooler. If not, I'm sure FM is working on one although they may only use -8 like their NA/NB kit. Really needs to be -10.

Interesting factoid. The SAG has variable oil pressure. Dual VVT require huge oil volume at higher rpms. It's near impossible to build a pump that will flow enough to meet those peak requirements without being wastefully over supplying at low rpm/light load. The K series erred on the low volume side of the scale and is why they cavitate so quickly when revved past OEM redline when iVtec. With the SAG at light load, low rpm, the OP is scary low. Crack the throttle open and it instantly shoots up even before revs are up. Solenoid on pressure relief valve controlled by ECU. OP on demand. This is done to reduce parasitic losses. Cool.

We have the Mishimoto oil cooler on our car, pulled the trigger on that the moment we started looking at oil temperatures. Mishimoto's products are hit or miss - my impression is they make some strange decisions in the R&D phase with some products, whereas with other products they get things right. In the end, that's why we carry only select products from them. In the case of the ND oil cooler, it's a good solid kit. Only thing we changed is we flipped the heat exchanger upside down so the in/out are in the bottom since we prefer that the oil drain from the cooler for oil changes. Decent heat exchanger with good placement, -10AN throughout, quality sandwich plate (we only carry the thermostatic version), and they have an excellent warranty. Working great, does everything we need.

Ok thanks for the info. I did check the OVT site and they claim to have an E85 tune, but with the "interesting" and results from their tune and the GWR header that can't be 3rd party verified........It makes me leary.

That is some cool tech!


From what I've seen in the BMW and BRZ/FR-S community, they typically copy other companies designs with inferior quality materials. I'd have a REALLY difficult time installing any of their parts on my personal car.

We have not done any E85 testing/development yet.
I agree with Emilio, I'd be very surprised if the DI system couldn't handle E85.

I can't speak to all their products, there are some I certainly don't like, but the ND kit is good throughout and works well. I'd do a ground-up kit for the ND if this didn't already exist, but after almost a year on this kit I haven't seen any reason to take it off and invest our own time/energy/resources on doing it over.

Awesome thanks for the additional. E85 isn't a huge deal, but it's pretty readily available here so in the summer months it would be nice to take advantage of the extra power.


Emilio, are you guys still using Shiv and the OFT? I know he has an E85 tune for the BRZ.

Shiv couldn't access our ECU because it had it's OEM map replaced by an EcuTek map. Matt (OV Tuned) couldn't match what I already had so we stuck with the EcuTek map I built. My map is crude but the cars runs great. OFH, stock midpipe and muffler plus my tune on CA91. Haven't dynoed it since my last bit of street tuning so I don't know what its making.

Key point for any reflash, the SAG is highly sensitive to actual octane and that fuels specific det resistance. You have to tune for your gas. Personally, I think a 1 point lower compression set of pistons combined with full thermal coated chambers could allow for much higher pump gas output.

FYI, running the cooler upside down prevents it from self-bleeding. You need to manually bleed the air from the cooler if you aren't running the fittings at the top/side.

That's an interesting statement to make without presenting any evidence.
Yes you could certainly design a hex that might trap air, but it would have to be pretty tall (assuming in/out is on the vertical) in an oil application.
Something that's closer to a square is more unlikely to capture air than something that's a tall rectangle.
It comes down to the resistance of the lattice versus the resistance of feed path.
Once upon a time back in the lab I worked in during my college days we actually did this experiment for a compressor we rebuilt.
Turns out the way the hex performed was highly tied to its design.

Since I don't have any data on the mishimoto unit, I'm not going to make any claims ;)

^Yep. You can end up with the top few rows of the cooler being a big air bubble and non-functional. I've felt it on an auto trans cooler mounted that way. The bottom rows are hot and the top ones are much cooler.

Gotcha. I knew that was an issue since they write to the ROMs differently.

Thanks again for all the info.

I know the reasons on paper that are often cited to argue against mounting it that way. After speaking with engineers at more than one heat exchanger manufacturer several years ago (all of which said it wouldn't be a problem) I said to hell with it, one way to find out and mounted the oil cooler on my turbo car this way. Verified lack of air pockets over a year or so after each drain/fill by checking the vertical temperature spread across the heat exchanger. My direct experience backed up the engineer's claims to a point that I've been confident mounting oil coolers that way since then.

Disclaimer: Don't just take my word for it, always check for proper operation on a new install.

Same experience as ThePass. Verified with a laser pyrometer after track sessions. Oil cooler temperature is even top to bottom and hotter than radiator temperature. It's full.

wouldn't an aluminum heat exchanger spread heat around very well, even if not all of it was full of oil? :dunno:

Probably isn't a huge issue, especially if you have more cooler than you need anyways.

Based upon Sixshooter's direct experience, I would say no. Even if it came close, I doubt it would be close enough to get a match with a pyrometer. After all, that same heat exchanger is in contact with cooling air too.

You measured while driving?

Received an email back from OVT (Orange Virus Tuning) regarding E85 and fuel system head room for the ND.

"There is plenty of head-room in the stock fuel system for Ethanol. We are even running E85 + 7psi of boost on the stock fuel system, so N/A + E85 is no problem at all.

Ethanol does make a huge difference on this engine, and ethanol + Goodwins Header makes the ND seriously quick."

Uh, no . . . . I don't take tire temps while driving either, but that doesn't make them invalid for adjusting pressures.

Look, it's not mysterious. Transmission fluid has low viscosity and low volume. Engine oil has high viscosity (especially on startup) and high volume. Engine oil coolers fill up and self-purge. All the oil cooler manufacturers state this in their documentation and recommend mounting in any direction. The few of us that have mounted with inlet/outlet on the bottom have not had issues.

And at 60-90 psi, how would an air bubble survive and resist being blown through into the crankcase?

Divers have air bubbles on their backs at over 3000 psi and it doesn't blow out...

Now, come on, that's not a valid analogy. I expect better from you. We're talking about a bubble in a free-flowing system where the fluid is coming in at 90psi. There's an in, and an out. Under those conditions I don't see how the upper rows of the radiator stay free of oil unless there's some sort of blockage. If there's no obstruction to flow, I don't see how the pocket of air survives instead of getting dragged out by the high pressure oil.

Unlike a statically pressurized tank of gas, which is experiencing no through flow, only release through a regulator.

Aside from the fact that he's referring to pressure rather than the velocity (flowrate) of oil, Mobuis' underlying argument is essentially valid. A large volume of oil passing through the system at a reasonably high velocity will tend to force air to flow in ways that it would not normally do in a static system under the force of gravity alone.

Consider the following thought-experiment: I have a large container of water, such as the Gulf of Mexico. I then blow a strong and uneven air current across the top of it, such as a hurricane. Do we expect the water to remain stationary? No, it will interact with the air, and some of it will be displaced into areas it would not normally go under the force of gravity alone, such as Tampa.

The same basic dynamic principles are at work inside an inverted oil cooler.

My point was that pressure isn't relevant. It only changes the size of the bubble.

But if we are talking flow, bubbles can absolutely cause blockages and obstructions. They cause problems all the time in cooling systems and fuel lines.

But let's idealize the situation. Imagine a sealed column of water with a bubble at the top. Then add an inlet and outlet to the bottom somewhere. The flow may disturb the bubble, but there's no guarantee it will flush it completely out. You'd have to have perfect flow distribution through your cooler to get that bubble out.

But of course it should be obvious that this is the case for the same reason ThePass can't get the oil out when it's fittings-up no matter how much air he blows into it. :)

If you want it to be able to drain and never have a problem holding air, mount it standing on end with the inlet at the bottom and the outlet at the top. Just thinking out loud.

BTW, for anyone that was wondering, the Beryllium finish on the 6ULs is pretty much a dead match to our Pearl Gunmetal Gray finish without being the same actual color code.
We use the PGG finish on all our brackets for various products (motor mounts, fire extinguishers kits etc..) and have done it on many roll bars as well, so if anyone looking for a match, that's a good one.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...254d59a426.jpgND RZ finished in Pearl Gunmetal Gray

Joe Perez for the win:bowrofl:

Sorry to bring it back up, but I just found out a JDM company called Odula has toe control cancellation bushings already available. I have no idea how bushings would stop the toe from changing, but would they solve the issues you have seen and allow the better ride on the ND you have been looking for?

Isn't the issue due to the kinematics of the suspension, and not bushing softness?

Maybe the bushing has an offset or maybe off-axis thru-hole to correct the issue? I dont think anyone has mentioned the root cause or fix, but if the issue needs just a small correction to the kinematics, a bushing could work. I doubt it's a legit solution though

Your guess is as good as mine. I don't know anything about suspension design or how to cancel toe gain. Emilio does mention that the needed change is a small amount, so perhaps the bushings could be the small change needed.

This

The Odula bush just replaces a compliance bushing. We looked at it for quite a while. My original post explained that multiple links share the complex kinematic. Meaning you would have to either relocate multiple pick up points or replace the entire hub. It is not a traditional double wishbone that can have one pick up point relocated or on link adjusted in length. Doing so on the rear of the ND would bind it up. Even stock, it's binds a bit and distorts two of the bushings. I'm not even sure you could put bearings in with leaving one or two as compliance bushings to allow it to move.

But now that I have mentioned it, Chilicharger665 won't get any sleep until the icky toe steer is fixed once and forever :)

I get plenty of sleep. Excuse me for mentioning ND parts and possible solutions in the ND discussion thread.

Just ribbing you. Having a little fun because you won't let go of it. We do that here.

Seriously though, I'm not sure any vendor is actually aware or will become aware of the toe steer curve nor recognize it as a problem nor understand how to fix it. IOW, If Supermiata doesn't do a billet rear upright, the ND rear toe steer will not likely ever be addressed. That is unless Mazda changes it the way Honda did with the S2K. We don't currently have plans for billet rear uprights BTW. Hopefully I'm wrong though, and some enterprising little group comes up with something.

I get the ribbing. I have already demonstrated I don't even know how radius and diameter work, so consider me hopeless when it comes to suspension issues.

I won't let it go, because I don't understand it and I wish I did.

Anyways, switching to the front, there seems to be a lack of front camber until you start lowering it quite a bit. Karcepts already has offset front bushings, but your very own Doward posted a topic yesterday about how great the ELBJ's work on the NA/NB chassis to get enough camber and allow a higher ride height. Can the ND benefit from the same concept? Those Karcept bushings looks like a PITA to install...

They are PITA, and crucial to getting the front end to work. We have two other ideas for camber adjustment up front but we needed something quick for MRLS.

I am the greatest thing which can possibly happen to any web forum. The loyalty of those who willingly supplicate to my majestic awesomeness is noted, and will in due course be rewarded.

Chili: What are you plans for the car? I'm just curious because there are only a handful of ND owners here that aren't involved in a shop of some sort.

I'm firmly in the camp of "I already made one Miata an undriveable mess on the street" and I don't even really like driving the ND on the 225 RE-71Rs on the street. I legitimately think that the car is more fun to drive on lower grip tires day to day just for the kinesthetic feel.

100% this.

It's just really hard to justify a second limited-use, 2 seat, convertible. :(

Do you still have the other miata that is undriveable on the street? I have an 01 that the paint is complete shit on and would be perfect to make into a track car, but I will have to sell all my other cars and parts to afford a 2017 Club, so I will see if I end up doing that. My birthday is next February and that is when I would do it.

My plans were to make a do-it-all car, but now Emilio has me doubting that. I currently have a Sport, which would be perfect to put Moti's GT3 roll bar in, get Goodwins hardtop, and make it a great dual-duty car. However, I really, really miss not having XM radio, because I do TONS of traveling in the car. Which in NM means you are out in the middle of nowhere, with no cell or even FM signal. Plus, the stock Sport speakers are complete garbage. So I want to get a 2017 Club, basically just for the stereo, XM, and the LSD.

With all the suspension funkiness and Emilios attitude of just ignoring it and putting whatever lowering stuff I want on it, now I just want to put some FM springs on the Club's Bilsteins, get some 17x8 6UL's and run some 215/45/17's. Probably an RS3 or something that is sticky, but not cheater level sticky. That will give me slightly more width and slightly more sidewall, for better ride.

Then I will probably do a full exhaust, a rollbar, and some exterior things, like an Integral Kobe rear spoiler and the new Velox rear diffuser. I wanted to run the Openflash center exhaust, but Velox doesn't seem to want to make a version like that. Plus that muffler is going to just as heavy as the stock one and the rear bumper trim will add even more weight. I could run a Goodwin race muffler and the Velox rear diffuser and still lose weight. Plus, I miss the angry bees sound of my last NC. It had a loud Mazdaspeed muffler on it.

I wish I lived near a track, but I have to drive 5 hours to get to the nearest one, so it hasn't happened in nearly 3 years now, so all this track stuff is just in my head and theoretical.