I still have the NA; it's been sitting around in the garage waiting for funds to clear up so I can get it road/track worthy again (deferred maintenance and needing to throw a few parts at it).

I don't understand, you're unhappy with your 2016 Sport because it doesn't have XM because you decided to save like $1500. It's a creature comfort. Then you talk about trading it in on a 2017 to get the creature comfort that you want, and then plans on making it an uncomfortable road car (rollbar, springs, sticky tires, etc).

I've done the dual duty thing before with my NA back when I was finishing up school, and I have absolutely zero desire to go back to that. It's definitely fun in the moment and it is rebellious and transgressive; however, sometimes you just have to fucking get to work and it's 1am on a Tuesday. I know it's apples & oranges, but let's take a look at the Solo Nationals from last month; top of CS was a 2016 MX-5 that had a combined time of 121.472 (62.469 Day 1, 59.003 Day 2), the top of STR was an AP2 but the first 2016 MX-5 was in 3rd for a combined time of 116.004 (54.533 Day 1, 61.511 Day 2). A ~4% spread in times.

Keep in mind, I'm not calling the car 100% perfect out of the box or to throw bombs over the wall at people who like to personalize or do modifications to their cars; however, the car is sporty enough, it's loud enough, and it's comfortable enough. For Point A to Point B driving, I genuinely enjoy driving the car because it's engaging and fun (i.e. - the Miata formula), and I don't have to go through the mental checklist of things to keep in mind because it isn't a perpetual project.

Chilli, why don't you just put XM radio in your current car? You can wire it in right?

If you want a track car, you might be far better served with a car that you don't have to worry about as much. Why not just get a cheap NB?

http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/downlo...hp?id=4012&t=1

Just dug this photo up from last year, driving around the town of Carmel after Miatas @ MRLS.

The thing I like so much about the ND is how it can serve multiple purposes, both daily driver and high performance toy. It does both with a big helping of fun factor mixed in, and without making big compromises either way - particularly with a GT model like we have. It's already very light by modern standards, no need to strip the interior out to save a few lbs. Choose your modifications wisely and you can have a car that you can drive all day long with great comfort and confidence and then drive right on to a race track and hit your apexes, then drive it right home. It's why I always go back to the Porsche analog when describing how well the ND can be set up to "do it all".

Sorry Chili, but IMO if you're trying to skimp on creature comforts in a car like the ND, you're already looking at the equation the wrong way. This isn't an NA which you need to choose one path and compromise all others in pursuit of it. Full interior, full comforts, great set of coilovers like the XIDA or Ohlins, upgraded brakes if you want to track it on the weekends. Roadstersport exhaust that sings when you want it to and quiets down when you're crusing. If you want to hang the tail out a bit every now and then on the street, stick with 7" or 8" wide wheels and a decent tire but not the race-tire-in-sheeps-clothing UHP stuff. That's where it's at.

About a month ago, I was out playing with Keith Verges in his ND. He had replaced the stock suspension and put on some sticky rubber. The car moved, it was nearly as quick as my dedicated track NA! And it was a true dual-duty car with all the comforts. Impressive.

When I pick up an ND, I plan to do as Ryan suggested.

The rollbar I want is the Blackbird street version. Then only thing it does is make me have to use two hands to raise the top, instead of one. I don't see how that compromises any streetability?

I feel the car is way too soft stock. I do not like excessive body roll. The ND definitely has excessive body roll. I went from a stock suspension NC, to an NC with lowering springs on Bilsteins, to my current ND. I felt the springs lowered the car the perfect visual amount and I enjoyed the car much more than the stock NC. So I definitely don't think just lowering springs will be a detriment to the streetability of an ND, either.

As far as sticky tires go, I am undecided on what exact tire, but I definitely want slighter wider wheels and slightly wider tires, so 17x8 6UL's and some 215/45's sound great to me. Not to mention 215/45's tend to be cheaper than 205/45's in the same tire.

For loudness, I've had 5 Miatas before the ND. 3 with stock exhaust and 2 with aftermarket. I enjoyed the ones with more exhaust note much more than the stock ones. The NC I traded in more the ND had the loudest exhaust of all my miatas, and all it was was a Mazdaspeed muffler. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Maybe my thoughts and words were all jumbled up in my previous long post, but what I was trying to get across was that I would feel comfortable removing the soft top, getting Moti's GT3 roll bar, and getting a hard top for my current Sport, but I would not do that with a Club. So to maintain a fun street car that is trackable, instead of a track car that is streetable, I would like to go with a 2017 Club and just do mild mods, like the ones mentioned above.

You can, but then you have to stick the XM control screen somewhere, because the stock Sport radio can't control the XM. I haven't seen the ability to do that demonstrated, anyways.

As for an NB, I already have a 2001 sitting in my garage. It hasn't run in months and I can't figure out the problem.

Your Porsche analogy is one of the big reasons I wanted to get an ND. I want a do-it-all car, because I want to go back to one car.

I am confused to where I intimated that I wanted to strip my Sport's interior out? To run a GT3 roll bar, which would only happen if I kept my Sport, you have to remove the soft top, which then means I need a hardtop from your shop. I just came from an NC that had no soft top and an OEM hardtop. I loved it.

I have thought long and hard about the GT, but I don't like leather and I would rather buy an ND with an OEM LSD this time.

I am also confused at your list of parts to make a great compromise car. I mentioned wanting your RS exhaust. I mentioned 17x8 6UL's and a decent tire. I ran 205/50/15 RE11's on my NB for over 30,000 miles and enjoyed every bit of them. Is a Hankook RS3 not equivalent to an RE11?

The only things I didn't mention were coilovers and brake upgrades. If I get a Club, I will only have money for basic modifications, so that is why the Club appeals to me. It has better shocks and an LSD. So lowering springs should be fine, since I hardly ever get a chance to go to the track, and the stock LSD is obviously better than nothing. As far as brake upgrades, I think the best bang-for-the-buck would be V8R's front 11.75" kit. It loses 7.5 pounds a corner and the rotor costs are waaay lower. That and better pads for both ends should be more than enough for trackable street Miata.

Thoughts?

Is this the Keith Verges that just passed away?

He mentioned on m.net that he was running 15-inch wheels. At this risk of triggering Emilio, did you see that?

Yes, it was about 1 week before he died. What a shock. He looked great that day.

I don't know details about the car, other than Keith told me he replaced the suspension and stiffened it quite a bit. He kept it parked at his villa, so I didn't get a good look at it.

Let me preface this post by saying that:
That being said,

We start with one of the most visually-offensive dashboards in automotive history:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...45a47a220d.png



Then we take the SiriusXM Commander Touch:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...15ba730b7f.png



And we apply it to the incongruous, designed-by-committee interior:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f0c3adfa80.png




Viola! Poor-quality audio and an ugly dashboard, combined into a neat, inexpensive little package.

Satellite is super meh. Had it on my trip from Denver to Nebraska.

would never spend money on it. Even though it was the only thing to keep me company. I didn't see a single light for 2 hours straight.

The Sport doesn't have that full screen. If you have the full screen, it can control XM. I have already seen the pictures of a guy on m.net that installed that exact controller you have pictured and I didn't like it.

Once again, I live in NM. That means vast stretches of NO FM OR CELL signal. Satellite signal is everywhere. I happen to really like electronica/techno style music and XM has two separate channels that have live shows constantly. So it works for me.

Fair enough. Image revised to reflect the "I'm a cheap-ass" interior:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c6ede2849c.png
(ignore the red stitching, steering wheel controls, and everything else that sets this otherwise unremarkable interior apart from a 1972 Volkswagen Porsche 914. I'm lazy.)


I get it. You live in the heart of meth country, your taste in music sucks, and you can't figure out how to use the many and varied music applications which are available on the Android / iOS / WinPhone platforms. (It's ok. For some people, Blackberry is just the right decision.)


My brain is going in two directions here...

The first is to admit that, as a guy who worked on some of the early technology which eventually became the MiRGE platform, well... it sucks. The XM / Sirius codecs were built on early 90's vintage technology to be easily mass-producible at OEM scale for inclusion in factory radios at essentially zero cost. I have literally never worked with a worse perceptual coding technique in my life, and that's saying something given that I also had a role in both the Neural Audio system (which, ironically, was also used by XM) as well as the pile of aborted monkey fetuses which is now branded HD Radio®.

Ok, so not everything I've touched in my career has been gold. It happens...


The second is to just say that if you're looking for an excuse to get rid of your current ND and buy a new one, more power to you. That'll just make the prices drop a little faster so that I won't feel quite so ashamed of buying one in a few years. But if you seriously just want satellite radio, and didn't have the foresight to buy the car so equipped in the first place, well, deal with the consequences. Unless you can live with flushing $6k down the nearest toilet come next spring, you're gonna have an aftermarket thing stuck to your dashboard. Miata.net has a forum where you can commiserate about this.

A little fine tuning on the dyno today. Run info in dyno plot.
I am far from an expert with this ECU so the plot isn't perfect. The ECU has a jabillion tables it sifts through for every control parameter. A lot to learn.
Still, very happy with how it runs. The SAG loves octane. CA 91 is probably the weakest fuel you will find in the US. Tuners almost anywhere else will find more power with the same hardware.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...75899d2187.jpg

Chili, sorry if the way I structured that post came across as the whole thing was aimed at you. It wasn't, it was mostly just me reminiscing about the ND and fantasizing about what I'd do with my own after having played with quite a few varieties and options and parts in the GWR car.

My comment about stripping the interior of creature comforts was aimed at the decisions made by many to get a base Sport ND. Coming from most of my experience being in a GT, and then seeing the sports later, I was surprised how spartan the Sport felt due to the lack of seemingly small details and features. IMO those things make a big difference in how much you enjoy the car on a day to day basis. To me, it sounds like you're on the right track now to figuring out the car that will really twirl your propeller in the future.

Side note, the RS3 is a lot stickier than the RE11 was. Great tire, though.
Side side note, the hardtop doesn't clear the GT3 roll bar (yes, we're sad about this too).

Just chiming in but I see no reason not to buy a GT ever. The bilsteins in the brembos are both pointless. Other than the cost of it the upgrade thete is no significant weight penalty from all the kick ass amenities in the GT. Ours is a GT. It is one of our fastest track cars and it's also a lovely street car.

That sucks. Any good shops in the area around you? Have you written about the issues here or at mnet? I'm sure there's something being overlooked, but I bet that you're frustrated...

Emilio, pardon for asking, but what is "OFH"?

That dyno plot is strong. What a great platform.

Open Flash Header, I believe..

http://www.openflashtablet.com/produ.../mazda-mx5-nc/

I believe the "OFH" means "Open Flash Header", but I only minimally follow all the ND development.

Here's what you get when you go to a GT instead of a Club:

-heated leather seats instead of cloth
-lane departure warning system
-navigation
-no Bilstein-no LSD.

And it's about $600 more than a Club. Even if it were the same price I'd much rather have the Club.

1. Heated seats are awesome.

I think most here wouldn't care about the Bilstein's or the Navigation (what's on our phones is typically better than what's in a car anyways), but I'd have to take a brand new car somewhere to have an LSD installed.

Heated seats ARE awesome, but I hate leather in a 'vert. I wish sooooo much my s2k seats were cloth.

@Chilicharger665 the stock Club bilsteins on lowering springs with sways really drives nice. For a budget setup it's hard to beat. Yes if you're going to put Xidas on the car then the Billies aren't a good reason to choose to club... except that they're going to be worth more if resold.

But how 'bout the LSD? The Club is CHEAPER, and has an LSD. And, it has the same sound system as the GT -- the Bose with headrest speakers.

I really don't feel like the GT is a great value.

I bought and entire diff assembly with factory LSD from Mazda Motorsports for around $850

Good to know.

OK, so you are now at $1350 more than a Club for heated leather seats, nav, and lane departure warning.

I'd still go for the Club.

If I were in the market for an ND (I'm not) and I could get a club with heated seats and nav for $1350 more, I'd probably go for it. I really like heated seats, aftermarket ones don't measure up, and in-dash nav is so much easier to use than your phone.

The lane departure stuff I don't find all that useful.

--Ian

I have a company that can add heated seats for $500, and you can buy the Nav direct from Mazda on Amazon for $300.

But you do realize this is on a convertible, not your Audi, right? lol I'd actually pay to NOT have leather.

Serious question, since I haven't used any in-dash nav in a few years.

Does the current generation stuff have a real-time connection to whatever data service drives Google Maps, which provides you with both a constantly updated database of businesses, as well as realtime traffic and road conditions which then back-feed into automatic re-routing to avoid traffic jams and road closures?

No.

How does the hardtop not fit the GT3 bar. I thought it was designed around fitting that bar?

In my out-of-town drives in the ND where I needed directions I've always used my phone for nav. The best in-car nav still doesn't hold a candle to what we all have on our phones, so I've largely ignored that the car had that feature.

I'm still holding out hope that they'll add CarPlay/Android Auto. It desperately needs to happen, and if Mazda doesn't get on the ball soon they'll continue to lose sales over it. It's quite frustrating when people come in on the new 2017 3 or 6 and still no Android Auto, when friggin' Buicks and GMCs and Hyundais etc have had it for a couple model years now.

:vash:

Kinda what I figured.

So, for codrus, the concepts "easy to use" and "essentially useless" are not incompatible. :giggle:

The one in my 2016 Audi does. The newest Mazda I own is a 1999, so I can't say about those. (although we are looking at replacing my wife's Odyssey with a CX-9, so that may not be true for long)

I think, though, that there are different use cases here that are getting confused. Yes, for "find me the nearest Starbucks", the voice control on my Nexus 5 is better. In that case, I'm not actually using it as a Nav system, I'm just using it as a business finder system, and I'll mostly drive there using my brain's internal map. Where I think in-dash nav systems win is when I'm using it in unfamiliar territory, where I'm going to be looking at it every 10-15 seconds to find the turns I need to make. Phone screens are small, windshield suction cup mounts are a PITA, and trying to hold it in your hand is beyond annoying (and not particularly safe).

The other big win for an in-dash unit is that it doesn't rely on battery power. Yes, you can hook up a charging adapter and cable to your phone, but that's one more thing to fiddle with, and when they're sitting in the sun they heat up and then the charging circuitry shuts down to avoid overheating the battery. So in-dash is much better for road trips.

Ideal would be a system where I can look up the destination using my phone's voice recognition/etc and then have it automatically send the destination to the car's built-in system. Hopefully Android Auto will do that -- dunno, I've never actually seen one in real life.

If you can retrofit the Mazda OEM nav system to the car for $300, that's a viable option. Can you really do that? Most of the cars I've looked at that lacked the optional nav (not Mazdas) had a much lower-res screen in the dash to save cost. I've never seen an aftermarket seat heater install that I liked. As for leather in a convertible -- my Miata came with leather seats and the issues I had with them had nothing to do with the fact that it was a convertible, so I don't see what the big deal is?

--Ian

The ND dynos and weight make me so happy, but the cockpit has so much going on. The screen, all the buttons on the steering wheel... A stripped down version would be rad. I guess people will swap out the steering wheel, but that screen... It can't be hacked to display things like AFR etc can it?

Not yet. It's just a matter of time.

The GT also adds
-auto climate control
-auto headlights that also turn with the steering wheel
-auto windshield wipers
-lane departure, blind spot, and back up sensors
-heated side mirrors
-auto dimming rear view mirrors

All that stuff is cool, but the only real thing that would be a big deal to me is the turning headlights. That would be extremely useful for all the back roads I like to drive at night. As long as the difference is even noticeable. Has anybody driven both and noticed a difference?

Plus the Club comes with the blind spot monitoring for 2017. I also keep forgetting to say that the 2017 models will have the new transmission parts that Mazda is quietly substituting in now.

Ha, that is pretty cool that you know how the technology works behind the scenes! Or works terribly, in this case :rofl:

The reasons I got the Sport was because I got it before VW finally announced the buybacks and all that shit. I have an affected TDI. I have satellite radio in that. So, now that it is going away soon and I want to go back to one car. I currently have 3 and going to one car will save me money. The Sport was bought with several compromises in mind, so now that I want one car, I don't want to compromise.

I deal with the "consequences" of changing cars constantly. I have gone through 5 cars in the past two years.

When it comes time, if I have met or exceeded my savings goal, I will consider spending the extra few K on the GT.

Ok, if the RS3 is too sticky, perhaps something like the Michelin Pilot Super Sport?

I am super sad that the GT3 bar doesn't fit the hardtop either... Is it just the main hoop that hits? I am sure Moti can and will design a new version that can fit.

That's right, I forgot about those other features (it doesn't have rear parking sensors BTW unless you spec them for extra $$). I should know that stuff, I sell these things after all :giggle:

The swivelly headlights are freaking sweet. However, they don't make as much of a difference on the Miata because you get LED's even without the swiveling.

He did, it's called the RZ and it clears the soft top. There is no in between. The GT3 was designed for a hard top that was promised to us by a vendor about a year ago. That vendor changed their mind and left us without a hard top. So my personal car is a permanent roadster.
Hopefully they or a new vendor will step up and build a fully sealed OEM style HT so we can has weather protection.

What is "rear cross traffic alert" then? I assumed that was back-up sensors.

Good to know! RZ it is.

Rear cross traffic alert lets you know if something is coming from the side. it doesn't help with parking proximity.

I wouldn't base my decision on which trim level to buy on the swiveling headlights but yeah, they are freakin sweet. Personally, I like the leather heated seats and headrest speakers. The sound system is surprisingly good in the GT. Not sure if the club has the same sound. Nav in any car ever made is pointless when Maps will always own it. One of may favorite features is bluetooth so clear yo can drive on the highway with the top down and make/receive voice activated calls and still hear everything. Some serious propeller head stuff happening to make that possible.

I used to ride a naked bike where the headlight turned with the fork as opposed to being on the fairing. It was super nice.

Club has same sound system as GT. The sound system is really, really good, as you know from driving your GT Emilio. Really good for an OEM system.

The Club and GT have all the same sound/speaker arrangement. I also agree in-car nav is pointless. I have always used my phone for nav and there are already brackets to put your phone right below the radio screen.

I forget that the Club can be purchased without the Bremboz and maybe BBS wheels. In such case it makes sense to get the LSD in exchange for the leather if you prefer cloth.

yep.

The Club with the Brembo/BBS package is an utter ripoff IMO. Much better to get it without and put on wilwoods and 6ULs.

When I talked with Dave about this (I'm sure you have as well) I tried my best to push him to do a version that would work with the GT3. He was really set on the aesthetic he wanted to achieve with the street top which conflicted with the dimensions of the GT3, and at least at this time he didn't want to invest in a third design/mold for an ND hardtop when one of the two he's already developed will clear the GT3... IOW, AFAIK you could have a hardtop on your car tomorrow that would clear the GT3 - it's the same one that is going on all the GCCs, it just doesn't have quite the sleek shape of the street top.

-auto climate control
This is actually a pretty tits feature to those that don't have it (crap, I mean it's a "great" feature - sorry about the locker room talk). Unless of course my wife is driving - she will forever not get the point of climate control. If she's cold, it will always be set to the highest temperature, if she's warm, it will forever be set to max cold. The end result is just about the same as a very large percentage of women who I have ridden with, regardless of a climate control option, whose blower vents are always set to "boeing 747" and are never actually comfortable in their car. My value: $400

-auto headlights
Exceptionally convenient. I have never "forgotten" to turn the headlights off in my Tundra or 535i. My value: $150

-turning headlights
A nice novelty. My Value: $0

-auto windshield wipers
Also terribly convenient. After experiencing their use on the 535, I'm dissapointed they were not included in my Tundra. My Value $100

-lane departure, blind spot, and back up sensors
No experience with lane departure - I suspect it would be useful to those who regularly drive distracted, as well as to motorists who regularly find themselves behind drivers who regurlarly drive distracted. My Value: UNK
Blind spot - Nice to have, but again, a feature for drivers who regularly drive distracted. I have them on my Tundra, and I have never had them warn me of a vehicle in my blind spot which I did not already know was there. My Value: $50
Back-up sensors - Probably not nearly as useful on a very compact 2-seat car. On the Tundra, they are indespensible. My Value (In Miata): $50
Someone mentioned RCTA (Rear Cross Traffic Alert) - RCTA will annoy you 100 times for every time it saves your bacon, but for that one time it saves your bacon from an inattentive or careless driver, it's a nice feature to have. My Value: $50

-heated side mirrors
In areas that see frost or heavy overnight dew, this is a very nice luxury to have. My Value: $400

-auto dimming rear view mirrors
I think the Miata is the only car I've owned in the last 15 years that didn't have auto dimming rear view mirrors. My Value $50

Not mentioned in this post:
My value of heated leather is $800-$1400
My value of in car nav is $150

Other luxuries I have experienced:
I'd pay $400 for a heated steering wheel, and $200 for seats that were also vented.

But what about cooled cup holders?

Yeah, Club is 28,600 base and the Brembo/BBS package is 3400.

I forgot what invoice is on a GT, but a year after release (holy crap I've had this car for over a year) people should be able to bully the dealers around a bit to easily walk away with an ND for $26k OTD for a non Sport model.

Lots of ultra-low-mileage cars hitting the used market at $22-$24k already.

Waiting until they drop to about $10k, and will probably pick one up. Not concerned about the radio, electronic nannies (so long as I can disable them), or any of the other M.net stuff.

Vented seats would be nice but probably add too much weight. My new Ram 3500 dually has vented seats that get their flow from the A/C, fantastic.

I still want a Sport. Arrrrrrrhhhhh!!!!!

I LOL'd. Truth.

Wow, thought it was just my gf who did that. thats hilarious.

I have literally never had any of these things in any car I've ever owned.

Well, the headlight on my bike turns with the bars, does that count?

The struggle is real.

I've almost got my wife trained on how to properly use automatic climate control in the minivan. Almost...