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Old 04-18-2013, 12:48 PM   #141
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The science of obesity: what do we really know about what makes us fat? An essay by Gary Taubes | BMJ

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<Calories in, Calories out> , the energy balance notion has an obvious flaw: it is tautological. If we get fatter (more massive), we have to take in more calories than we expend—that’s what the laws of thermodynamics dictate—and so we must be overeating during this fattening process. But this tells us nothing about cause. Here’s the circular logic:

Why do we get fat? Because we overeat.

How do we know we’re overeating? Because we’re getting fatter.


And why are we getting fatter? Because we’re overeating.

And so it goes, round and round.

“The statement that primary increase of appetite may be a cause of obesity does not lead us very far,” wrote the Northwestern University School of Medicine endocrinologist Hugo Rony in 1940 in Obesity and Leanness, “unless it is supplemented with some information concerning the origin of the primarily increased appetite. What is wrong with the mechanism that normally adjusts appetite to caloric output? What part of this mechanism is primarily disturbed?” Any regulatory defect that drove people to gain weight, Rony noted, would induce them to take in more calories than they expend. “Positive caloric balance would be, then, a result rather than a cause of the condition.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:03 PM   #142
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Who is that in response to? I said something very similar.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:53 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
NO.

[Link to a story about chicken poop polluting some bay in Maryland]

FWIW Trader Joe's has individually wrapped chicken too.
We don't have Trader Joe's around here, but we do have Whole Foods. I suppose I can see if they have antibiotic-free chicken, but I am not so sure I am willing to let perfect be the enemy of good in this case - especially if it means making another trip for grocery shopping.

I do need to check the pricing of packaging and freezing my own chicken, though. If the Perdue is a little more than the Publix, I'm okay paying a small convenience fee. If it's double, maybe not.

Link to Perfect Portions nutritional info
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #144
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Aah, can't stay out.

So I took some time to go through some of the references that Lustig has in his fructose review. Apparently fructose in itself can cause hepatic steatosis, even when the results are corrected for energy intake. The evidence for this is really weak, but it is there.

I will now change my standing to "you can be relatively healthy and manage your weight regardless of diet"

Im not really arguing with you guys, there is a lot to know about nutrition, but it is also a field infested with bad science and snake oil. And as petrolmed (good name) tells me, our basic dogma is not the full truth, but my opinion is that is does not need to be, it works.
Of course, the twinkie diet wouldn't be something to recommend, but you do not need to overcomplicate stuff either.

Again, what I turned against was the confusion between weight, health and hunger.

please proceed debating and battling hunger.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:31 PM   #145
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Actually I've been doing that, got a slow cooker and been tossing them in there. They seem to come out pretty moist but seem to lack flavor a bit. Got any recipes or hints?

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Originally Posted by petrolmed View Post
If you want to be adventurous and frugal, start buying whole chickens. They're cheap all things considered, you'll learn some anatomy + knife skills, and you'll have legs, breasts, wings, organs, and the ability to make stock from the bones. Homemade stock can be a great nutritional powerhouse and recipe ingredient, but quality bird is again important considering the other stuff you'll extract from bottom shelf product.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:33 PM   #146
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@Sentic:

If one tends to eat a caloric surplus, you have to ask, "maybe changing what you eat will make it easier to eat less to get a caloric deficit". And there is lots of evidence showing that reducing sugars and starch, reduces hunger, making it much easier to achieve a caloric deficit.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:38 PM   #147
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I'm glad you've abandoned trying to call metabolism something thats its not.

...

1. Find BMR
There are 2 ways to use the word "metabolism" or "metabolize":
- to "metabolize" sugar/fat/tylenol/bourbon et al, meaning how the body breaks it down
- metabolism as in Basal Metabolic Rate.

Quote:
Two steps if you want to lose weight:
1. Find BMR
2. Eat under that amount
You see, what many of us here are saying, is that you don't have to do any of that ****, or count calories, nor have to be crabby and hungry on a tasteless unsatisfying shitty low-fat low-cal diet, if you just cut the sugar and starches. Your appetite will shrink and your body will enter a caloric deficit and burn its fat stores. Doubly easy if you go very low-carb. And you easily go into your vaunted calories in < calories out.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:44 PM   #148
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... most MDs that I've spoken with or read information from don't give me the level of nutritional understanding I desire nor full confidence in their word.
How many years was it between the ****-ton of research showed rampant vitD deficiency, before MD's began routinely recommending vitD blood tests? I reckon it was over 10 years.

How many years was it after the discovery that H. Pylori caused ulcers, before MD's started prescribing tests for it?
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:47 PM   #149
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mind blower:

a tree does not consume soil in any significant amount and they are not made of 99% water. so. where does the wood / leaves come from?

(I know the answer, but do you?)
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:51 PM   #150
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I get the practicality that Sentic is promoting. It's not like you can do much more than promote CICO as a doc when someone comes and sees you for 20-30 mins about something else. As long as we can agree that there are limitations to doing so in other situations of in depth health discussion!

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Actually I've been doing that, got a slow cooker and been tossing them in there. They seem to come out pretty moist but seem to lack flavor a bit. Got any recipes or hints?
Take a sizable pot/pan, throw in oil, a little salt + pepper, onion and garlic on high heat. Then add the carcass, neck, wing tips, bones, whatever in and let them caramelize to brown on the surface. Color is flavor! You don't need them to cook, just get that sexy brown. Once that's done, fill with water to cover the bones and maybe a little more. Scrape any of the brown thats stuck on the bottom of the pot from before. Toss in carrots, celery, onion, and some savory herbs like rosemary, thyme, and bayleaf or whatever. Let it boil then reduce to simmer and let it go for like 4 hours.

After that, you've got a classic style stock that you can drain off from the rest. No real meat to eat from this unless you wanna pick it off of the bones or save the veggie solids. Then you can use the liquid as a soup base, risotto or rice hydrator, sauce base, meat braising liquid, etc.

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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
mind blower:

a tree does not consume soil in any significant amount and they are not made of 99% water. so. where does the wood / leaves come from?

(I know the answer, but do you?)
CO2 carbon fixation right?
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:33 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
There are 2 ways to use the word "metabolism" or "metabolize":
- to "metabolize" sugar/fat/tylenol/bourbon et al, meaning how the body breaks it down
- metabolism as in Basal Metabolic Rate.



You see, what many of us here are saying, is that you don't have to do any of that ****, or count calories, nor have to be crabby and hungry on a tasteless unsatisfying shitty low-fat low-cal diet, if you just cut the sugar and starches. Your appetite will shrink and your body will enter a caloric deficit and burn its fat stores. Doubly easy if you go very low-carb. And you easily go into your vaunted calories in < calories out.
So ULTIMATELY, you do all your complicated diet rules and such to arrive at... eating under your BMR? Holy hell, thank you. I shall retire from this argument on that.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilicharger665 View Post
So ULTIMATELY, you do all your complicated diet rules and such to arrive at... eating under your BMR? Holy hell, thank you. I shall retire from this argument on that.
As long as you stop posting drivel, great.

Really, all anyone needed to do was a simple reductio ad absurdum to your silly CICO.

You were quick to distance yourself from my comment about donuts, yet you happily linked to the "Twinkie diet" as evidence that CICO is all anyone needs.

Can't have it both ways. Either CICO is really all you need and therefore the Twinkie diet or donut diet is just as healthy as any other diet so long as you maintain a calorie deficit, or CICO isn't really all you need because nutrition is important and different macronutrients are metabolized different ways and so it really does make a difference what kinds of things you eat, in which case you need to shut up about CICO.

So which is it?

Is CICO the only important guideline when constructing a healthy diet? Are you will to follow that argument to its absurd conclusion?
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:33 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Chilicharger665 View Post
So ULTIMATELY, you do all your complicated diet rules and such to arrive at... eating under your BMR? Holy hell, thank you. I shall retire from this argument on that.
What's easier:

- measure or calculate BMR based on some oversimplified chart, count calories, weighing portions, maintaining a log, keep eating starch and sugar, and be hungry and miserable and lose muscle mass along with fat, or

- simply cut out starch and sugar, eat 3x/day until satisfied, and watch the fat melt off, without losing much muscle mass and without being hungry and shakey?
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:23 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
What's easier:

- measure or calculate BMR based on some oversimplified chart, count calories, weighing portions, maintaining a log, keep eating starch and sugar, and be hungry and miserable and lose muscle mass along with fat, or

- simply cut out starch and sugar, eat 3x/day until satisfied, and watch the fat melt off, without losing much muscle mass and without being hungry and shakey?
This is literally the anti-science argument that article you posted was refuting.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:38 AM   #155
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I can answer this for you real simply that everyone seems to overlook, everybody is different certain foods react different to certain people, certain chemicals react different to certain people, some people have to take insulin before meals some do not. There is no one direct source for peoples fattiness besides not eating healthily for your specific body and exercising for your specific body
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Old 04-25-2013, 09:01 AM   #156
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One week after the dietary change and I have lost 4 pounds and I am almost never really hungry anymore. I eat less and stay full. I also have not been working out in that week because finals are approaching next week and all of the last projects were due this week.
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:56 AM   #157
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One week after the dietary change and I have lost 4 pounds and I am almost never really hungry anymore. I eat less and stay full. I also have not been working out in that week because finals are approaching next week and all of the last projects were due this week.
Awesome, congrats. I remember when I finally made the change, and feeling like I'd discovered some unfair secret to health. It's been a life-changer for me.

How have your energy levels been? I was so up and down from carbs (I would "crash" if I didn't eat every 3-4 hours -- sweaty, exhausted, depressed -- and then after eating my heart would race, I'd feel flush, my hands would tremble) that the change was immediately better for me, but I know a lot of people suffer through a few days of "carb flu" as their insulin levels reset.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:05 AM   #158
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The first 3 days I felt really heavy after meals like when you overeat but I adjusted. My energy levels have been pretty steady throughout the day. I am not nearly as tired and I no longer need an afternoon cup of coffee.

I had ups and downs before when I was eating more carbs and sugars but not nearly like what you went through. I am happy so far and I will be interested to see what happens after finals next week when I go back to a regular workout routine.
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:45 PM   #159
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One week after the dietary change and I have lost 4 pounds and I am almost never really hungry anymore. I eat less and stay full. I also have not been working out in that week because finals are approaching next week and all of the last projects were due this week.
Despite not working out.

This is what I've been saying to Chilicharger.

What you eat can make you eat less thus putting you into caloric deficit, and thus there's the CI<CO he keeps insisting on.

Congrats, keep it up. On workout days, the meal before the workout should be larger and more carby than usual.
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:49 PM   #160
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Great vid. Notice though that it mentions that you can be a bit of a fatty despite exercise, but an active fatty is a healthier fatty than a couch potato fatty.

Lustig (anti sugar crusader UCSF nutritionist) says the same thing.
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