Sensitive throttle pedal in non sporty cars? Blame the average driver - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-22-2013, 12:47 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default Sensitive throttle pedal in non sporty cars? Blame the average driver

DBW Throttle Characteristics - The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board

" . . . . drivers considered subjectively to be more aggressive in nature preferred a lower IIP (Throttle gain). This indicates that they prefer or require more control over the available power"

So more aggressive drivers who actually *use* their car's power, prefer a more linear throttle pedal, and the type of drivers who barely accelerate when the light turns green want to do so with 1 millimeter of throttle travel.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 12:50 PM   #2
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

Luckily all cars that matter can be tuned, which means this can be dialed in to whatever your little heart desires.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 01:12 PM   #3
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Volo, IL
Posts: 1,247
Total Cats: 140
Default

That explains why everytime I go to drive the wife's mazda5 I wind up squawking the tires for the first few intersections. It has a seriously sensitive gas pedal.
dieselmiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 03:53 PM   #4
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 1,177
Total Cats: 27
Default

I don't like agrresive tip-in especially in the winter in a torquey truck. Should be linear is my preference.

You can even get cams for dirtbike throttles to increase/decrease throttle cable travel over the same rotation amount.

G2 Ergonomics | Throttle Tubes and Moto PartsG2 Ergonomics
Landrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 03:55 PM   #5
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

I would just like it if my DBW just did what I told it to, now, not 15 minutes later. I much prefer drive by cable over drive by wires and solenoid.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 04:44 PM   #6
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

drives car with 8.4 cr and 10' of exhaust plumbing before turbo
complains about response
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 05:26 PM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

2/3 of my current stable is drive by cable, and the one that isn't doesn't have a throttle body at all.
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 05:34 PM   #8
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
drives car with 8.4 cr and 10' of exhaust plumbing before turbo
complains about response
yup!
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 07:29 PM   #9
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: finger lakes NY
Posts: 444
Total Cats: 17
Default

What do they use in F1? Optical fibers and nanorobots? Variable valve lift?
DaveC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 07:31 PM   #10
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

they use the same dbw these nancies are complaining about lol

its just tuned well
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 07:41 PM   #11
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

I've driven a couple of DBW rental cars, and while the feel of the pedal itself seems a bit odd, I've not been unable to master the throttle in all but one of them.

The 2010 VW CC defies me to drive it properly. Seems like that car has a deliberate 2 second lag and about a 20į lead-in dead spot engineered into it.

You press on the throttle, and nothing.

You press on it some more, still nothing.

You press on it a bit more, and THEN it thinks that you're John-*******-Force doing an NHRA Funnycar launch.

This is especially annoying when it happens during your first day driving in Germany, in the dead of winter, on snow-covered roads. I literally cannot imagine what the folks at VW were trying to accomplish when they programmed that thing.

They have managed to accurately simulate the behavior of a '90-'93 Miata being driven up a hill on a cold morning immediately after engine start. (Those of you who have owned stock '90-'93 Miatas with the original ECU still in place will know the exact behavior which I am describing.)
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 08:18 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 2,791
Total Cats: 130
Default

^ I drove a GTI several years ago and had the exact same experience. It's the only DBW car I've even driven, and I absolutely hated it. Surely they can't all be that bad. I really just don't understand what benefit they offer over a plain ole cable.
pdexta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 08:26 PM   #13
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

My 540i's DBW is great EXCEPT for revmatch blipping. You blip, it goes "huh?!". You keep your foot in, bliiiiiiip, then RPMs rocket to 6000. Very hard to rev match.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 08:47 PM   #14
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
I really just don't understand what benefit they offer over a plain ole cable.
Easier implementation of traction-control.
Easier implementation of stability-control.
Easier implementation of cruise-control.
Eliminates need for a separate idle valve.
Allows for slight improvement in accel emissions.
(etc.)
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 09:23 PM   #15
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

So actually a lot of things.

I'd gladly use dbw on my miata if it was available
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 09:26 PM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 3,325
Total Cats: 235
Default

My brothers MkV GTI has this weird lag on lift, like the throttle takes 1/2 second to close or something. There were times driving it where I was on the brake while the car was still accelerating.

Otherwise it never had the lag of the MkVI you guys are talking about.
thenuge26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 10:08 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 1,196
Total Cats: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Easier implementation of traction-control.
Easier implementation of stability-control.
Easier implementation of cruise-control.
Eliminates need for a separate idle valve.
Allows for slight improvement in accel emissions.
(etc.)
They had one job, run a ******* cable.

The 1992 honda accord was, and still is, an excellent car. Yet, it has OBDI, A throttle cable, and a 4speed auto. And it's damn reliable and easy to work with. Just because there are incremental gains from a technology, doesn't mean it's better.




I remember the first time I went to rev a newer honda from under the hood..... and saw no throttle return spring.

Attached Thumbnails
Sensitive throttle pedal in non sporty cars?  Blame the average driver-luddite.jpg  
2ndGearRubber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 08:27 AM   #18
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

one time i read this: Subaru Drive By Wire and How to Improve it - NASIOC

I didn't come away any smarter.


I have played around with my DBW maps and I was able to make nominal improvements in how the car feels (similar to the post linked above), but the actual throttle response compared to a drive-by-cable is seriously lacking and I'm unsure how to improve it further. There is a measurable delay in, say, 2nd gear if you're cruising, lift, and then hit the accelerator again, you can feel the injectors kick on late and the car finally move. I have increased my acceleration enrichments, and lowered the threshold for enrichments, and it helped a little but it's still not perfect. I'd say it feels like a miata running a freshly installed untuned MS that needs to tune EAE and AE.

Vlad keeps trying to convince me it's the most amazing invention in the history of the world, but I still dont get it. I've never complained about drive-by-cable, I've only complained about DBW. So that tells me DBW is inferior.

I mean when you really think about it, what's going to control the throttle better, your brain?

Or your brain moving your foot, a pedal position sensor sending that data to an ecu, the ecu running an algorithm to interpret the data through the requested torque table, the ecu sending that data to an actuator, and the actuator finally doing what your brain first asked?

Last edited by Braineack; 07-23-2013 at 08:42 AM.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 09:13 AM   #19
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,639
Total Cats: 25
Default

A DBW system could simulate a cable but they choose not to.

They choose to make a system they think the average person wants to feel. Which is nothing to scare you if you blip it but lots of torque without moving the pedal much so it feels powerful day to day.

Dann
nitrodann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2013, 10:21 AM   #20
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
one time i read this: Subaru Drive By Wire and How to Improve it - NASIOC

I didn't come away any smarter.


I have played around with my DBW maps and I was able to make nominal improvements in how the car feels (similar to the post linked above), but the actual throttle response compared to a drive-by-cable is seriously lacking and I'm unsure how to improve it further. There is a measurable delay in, say, 2nd gear if you're cruising, lift, and then hit the accelerator again, you can feel the injectors kick on late and the car finally move. I have increased my acceleration enrichments, and lowered the threshold for enrichments, and it helped a little but it's still not perfect. I'd say it feels like a miata running a freshly installed untuned MS that needs to tune EAE and AE.

Vlad keeps trying to convince me it's the most amazing invention in the history of the world, but I still dont get it. I've never complained about drive-by-cable, I've only complained about DBW. So that tells me DBW is inferior.

I mean when you really think about it, what's going to control the throttle better, your brain?

Or your brain moving your foot, a pedal position sensor sending that data to an ecu, the ecu running an algorithm to interpret the data through the requested torque table, the ecu sending that data to an actuator, and the actuator finally doing what your brain first asked?
no, I keep telling you why and you keep going full retard and not listening. we talked like 20 times about this now:
your car in general is very unresponsive. super low cr, miles of pre-turbo exhaust piping, and it doesn't help that its all corked up with the stock intake downpipe and exhaust since you refuse to modify it. It will always be way less responsive than your miata.

Go drive a drive-by-cable subaru (any 02-05 wrx will do) and suddenly your pipe dreams of dbc "fixing" everything will be shattered and you will realize your theory is fail and aidz.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Turbo 1995 Miata Low mileage Clean Tekel Cars for sale/trade 29 02-05-2016 05:16 PM
NEW-Wiseco Piston, K1 Rods, Supertech Valves & Spring/Retainer, TB&C pedals Rudes333 Miata parts for sale/trade 17 11-05-2015 02:16 PM
Overheating Turbo'd 96M Bruce MacKay General Miata Chat 8 09-05-2015 08:05 PM
ME221 Now has Autotune and Long Term Fuel Trim Tables Motorsport-Electronics ECUs and Tuning 0 09-05-2015 09:02 AM


Tags
dick in potatoes, joe perez

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:16 PM.