Why turbo your car and get only 160whp? You can get there NA anyway for 2k. - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-17-2008, 01:03 AM   #61
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I hear a lot of talking but I don't see one single link Cutlass. You talk like this thing is no big deal. I hear what you're saying... a little Yankee ingenuity and some imagination and anything is possible...

#1: Buy the parts and install. (a list would be great).
#2: Port/polish your head with a Dremel (go ahead, eyeball it... nothing to worry about).
#3: Fab exhaust (no problem, there's a book to show me how).
#4: Pour in race gas
#5: Tune w/wideband.

Am I missing anything? It all sounds so easy... but I've been in the Miata world for about 6 years now and I've never seen one of these motors. Do they exist in the Escort world or what? Certainly you've got a website you could link us... or maybe there's a shop we can call that's dyno'd one of these beasts. A Myspace page at least?

By the way, I just did a quick search for Gude... they no longer have a website, and the majority opinion across the ENTIRE INTERNET is to stay away from Gude, aka Bullfrog. The Honda/Acura guys are especially vehement about running away quickly.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:04 AM   #62
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Sir, your being quite unkind and inconsiderate, and you've made several wrong statements yourself. You don't know as much as you think you know.
So does VTEC do variable valve timing?
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:10 AM   #63
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What the **** ever, you tool. Go have fun making 270whp with a fuel pressure regulator and a distributor in your front-wheel-drive shitbox.
i'm using an oem tubo ecu and an safc dumb ****. the last guy to do this made 269 whp
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:14 AM   #64
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So does VTEC do variable valve timing?
No. It can't vary the valve timing. It can only switch between two cam profiles, and that's controlled by RPM.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Oh realy? How so? Let's say he has a welder. He could raise the angle of the runners, giving the air a straighter path to flow. he could get a junk head for say 40 bucks, and grind the tops of all the runners until he finds all his waterjackets, oil jackets, etc. Then, he welds the floors of the runners up, and grinds them all to the shape and area desired. Do this for both intake and exhaust. Then, he can fabricate a new intake manifold that will be made to bolt onto the new raised runners. That alone would give him a 15-20% increase in power everywhere, and substantially increase VE at higer RPM's, as a more equal amount of air can pass through any given point of the seat. Heavily unshrouding the valves will also help the motor breath better. Bowl work will be the most important spot on the head, so it must be done well. I often see heads that say they have head the bowls blended, but indeed, they are not done properly.
Has any of that actually ever been done, though? There's a lot more to head grinding and cams than just taking a dremel to the thing and then picking out a set of hot cams. You have to match the porting to the cam. In addition, I've never seen a shop that has actually done what you're talking about, increasing the height of the intake runners.

Even after all of that, by your own admission, that's only 15-20%, so let's say 130whp to be nice. It's a long stretch from 130whp to 160whp without touching the bottom end.

Forgive me for being rude, but cutlass isn't exactly a big, credible name in the Miata world, and his statements contradict the experiences of a lot of people who have been doing this for a while. The group of owners who have 160whp N/A Miatas is a pretty small bunch, and I'd be stunned if a single one of them made it there on a stock bottom end motor.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:15 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
Honda makes that much power with some of their 1.6's... The reason is that they have a badass head design (and vtec allows a really aggressive high rpm cam to be used while keeping the car driveable). The BP's biggest issue is the head and cams... and to make 160hp without variable valve timing it would suck to drive on the street. Which is why nobody does it.
.

i dont want anything to do with this thread,
but i had a b16 civic, cams, intake, exhaust, header back
good tune,

not to mention a redline of almost 9.6k

i made 150 wheel horse......

ur statement is incorrect,

thank you
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:22 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Has any of that actually ever been done, though? There's a lot more to head grinding and cams than just taking a dremel to the thing and then picking out a set of hot cams. You have to match the porting to the cam. In addition, I've never seen a shop that has actually done what you're talking about, increasing the height of the intake runners.

Even after all of that, by your own admission, that's only 15-20%, so let's say 130whp to be nice. It's a long stretch from 130whp to 160whp without touching the bottom end.
No sir, I said "that alone would be 15-20%" I was talking about changing the angle of attack to the runners. Reread what I wrote. With the correct headwork, intake, cams, exhaust, I bet he could increase flow by say 40% over stock everywhere, and more on topend, as our motors are undersquare, and don't breathe well at high rpms.

Of course this has been done before. I helped a guy do this to a 302 Ford a few years back. It was actually a 302, bored out to a 440 or 460 cubic inches-small block. Can you say Wetsleaves?

you would build the head, then match the cams to the head, not the other way around. I'm not surprised you've never seen this before. I've seen it twice, on that 302, and on a Chevy 454 with AFR heads.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:28 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
No sir, I said "that alone would be 15-20%" I was talking about changing the angle of attack to the runners. Reread what I wrote. With the correct headwork, intake, cams, exhaust, I bet he could increase flow by say 40% over stock everywhere, and more on topend, as our motors are undersquare, and don't breathe well at high rpms.
So full headwork, cams, exhaust, intake, the full enchilada is worth 40%?

105whp x 1.40 = 147whp

13whp, please...
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:31 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
So full headwork, cams, exhaust, intake, the full enchilada is worth 40%?

105whp x 1.40 = 147whp

13whp, please...
Reread pleas...


I bet he could increase flow by say 40% over stock everywhere, and more on topend,
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:32 AM   #70
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savington 130hp isn't a big deal, my motor is probably making more
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:54 AM   #71
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Quote:
i dont want anything to do with this thread,
but i had a b16 civic, cams, intake, exhaust, header back
good tune,

not to mention a redline of almost 9.6k

i made 150 wheel horse......

ur statement is incorrect,

thank you
If I'm not mistaken, a stock b16 should make 160hp, although that may be at the flywheel, with all those mods you should be making way more than 150whp..
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Old 01-17-2008, 03:23 AM   #72
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You guys forgot the cold air intake, good for 20+ and the NOS Stickers good for 10 more. I bet if we add a double decker hi-rise wing on the back we can squeeze a little more out of it. Man this thing going to be PHAT ....Yo!
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:47 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by supersaiyan93 View Post
So Savington, remind me how many heads a BP has again?



sorry, couldn't resist. pet peave.

Everything else you say is dead accurate though.

I think Savington doubts HE can do it. That's the problem.
I seriously keep asking myself why people insist to pluralize the word "Header" in reference to a four cylinder engine... Drives me up the ******* wall. My Mustang had headerS, my 1977 Ford F150 300cid 6 cylinder had headerS... Unless somewhere along the line someone made a 2 piece 4-1 setup that I've magically never seen..
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:03 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Of course this has been done before. I helped a guy do this to a 302 Ford a few years back. It was actually a 302, bored out to a 440 or 460 cubic inches-small block. Can you say Wetsleaves?

Oh, and I call complete and total bullshit on this. Theres no farking way in hell you could BORE a small ford out to 400+ cubic inches. Not a ******* chance in hell.

A 302 ford is a 4" bore and 3" stroke, by doing nothing more than an overbore we're talking a 4.765" bore to get the motor to 428cid which is NOT going to happen on any cast iron production block on the planet. Thats a 0.761" overbore!

Here, I attached a drawing of a "block" with dimensions indicated.



You'll see the bore spacing of the small ford indicated at 4.3800" leaving just 0.3800" between the cylinders inside wall. Boring out an engine to the displacement you're talking about would indicate the red circle with a radius of 2.3825" or a 4.765" bore.

Tell me again how someone bored a 302 to 400+CID?
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:14 AM   #75
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I hear a lot of talking but I don't see one single link Cutlass.

By the way, I just did a quick search for Gude... they no longer have a website, and the majority opinion across the ENTIRE INTERNET is to stay away from Gude, aka Bullfrog.
1. I'm not responsible for giving links about engine building, it's your and savinton's ******* fault if you don't understand the concept of a head

2. I've seen dynos for gude heads on BP's making over 145hp. With just a gude head.
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:15 AM   #76
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So full headwork, cams, exhaust, intake, the full enchilada is worth 40%?
Yes it is you stupid ************, this is the point that you can't seem to wrap your dumb *** head around.
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:18 AM   #77
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Has any of that actually ever been done, though?

The group of owners who have 160whp N/A Miatas is a pretty small bunch,
You wanna know the reason? It's a waste of time. It's not impossible, it's just stupid to do.
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:19 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by urgaynknowit View Post
i dont want anything to do with this thread,
but i had a b16 civic, cams, intake, exhaust, header back
good tune,

not to mention a redline of almost 9.6k

i made 150 wheel horse......

ur statement is incorrect,

thank you
If you cannot make your crank HP into wheel HP with bolt ons it's your own fault not mine. I cannot be held responsible for your lack of tuning skills.
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:47 AM   #79
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Cutlass:

I think you guys are putting WAAAAAAAAAAY too much faith in what cylinder head porting would honestly do for a BP engine. AFR, which is a world leader in after market small and big block American manufacture engine serious performance cylinder heads makes their living doing just that... Taking a stock cylinder head and making it flow as much as physically possible to the limit of the engine it will be bolted onto..

Here is a dyno chart of a Stock 1995 mustang 5.0 vs their Stage II head system:



We're not talking about a 5.0 here, we're talking about a BP which has 4 cylinders and 192 cubic inches LESS. Those heads on the 5.0 picked up a total of 40 horsepower over the stock iron castings which is a significant gain. Divide that by 8 and you're increased the effective cylinder horsepower by 5 ponies per cylinder. I'm pretty sure with the volume, runner size, valve size, lift, and duration of the 5.0 the STOCK head flows MUCH MUCH more air than our little BP engines.

The BP stock intake valve diameter is 33mm and there are 2 of them for a total of 66mm of valve size, radius of one 33mm valve is 16.5mm. Take the area of that for a grand total of 855.2986mm per valve you get a total of 1710.5972mm2. The 5.0 cylinder head from AFR has a valve diameter of 1.90" or 48.26mm for a total area of 1829.214mm2. That alone proves the 5.0 intake valve will flow more by size of the opening alone.

Lets attack the camshaft now. BP stock camshaft on a 1994 miata has a total duration of advertised 195 degree intake with a total lift of 8.58mm. Pathetic! The 5.0 STOCK E series camshaft has a duration of 276 degrees with .444" lift or 11.2776mm.

Explain to me how you're going to obtain numbers ANYWHERE Near what AFRs head work did on a 5.0 PER CYLINDER Horsepower gain with a ******* dremel and some spare time? Do you have some hightech flowbench stuck up your *** that we'd like to know about? I'm just curious...

EDIT: I first copied the wrong chart.. numbers corrected now.

Edit again: Air Consumption of a 302CID engine at 6500RPM is 33.31lbs of air / minute. Air Consumption of a 110CID engine at 6500RPM is 12.13 lbs of air / minute. That also adds to my flow figures.

Last edited by elesjuan; 01-17-2008 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:48 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
2. I've seen dynos for gude heads on BP's making over 145hp. With just a gude head.
Funny, the rest of us haven't. In fact, I was just glancing over FM's site today looking at their dyno charts. 1640cc, 11:1, worked head, hot cams, ITBs, Link, RB header, full exhaust. 153whp. So, assuming the 8% power increase mentioned earlier, that's 156.6whp. Do explain how FM managed to LOSE 3.6whp on THEIR dyno by adding 199cc of displacement, a standalone ECU, headers, a full intake, and a full exhaust.

Wanna post those dyno charts instead of blowing copious amounts of smoke up all of our asses? You can talk the talk, god knows you've proven that, but at the end of the day nobody has ever seen a 160whp N/A BP with just a head rework, and while theory is nice and all, I like to see hard results before mouthing off like you've done.

Seriously, though. Get me a dyno chart that shows a 160whp N/A BP with JUST head modifications, and I will go back into my cave with my tail between my legs. Just go find the chart and we can end this right here, right now. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that a highly respected motor builder's time isn't worth anything, because your average joe with a dremel and a $40 book on head porting can clearly match a national motor builder's results.

Or you can keep insulting members of this website, telling us our **** is overbuilt and overpriced and you can do it better for far less money and see how far that gets you. Sam's got 200whp, I've got 220. How much, again, do you have? Or has your car never seen a dynamometer?

I've been told a lot of ****, especially by "experienced" people. I've been told that stock Miata 5-speed transmissions have excellent reliability at 300whp. No matter that I blew mine the following week at 219whp, my experiences must be worthless. I've now been told that building a head on a BP is worth FIFTY-FIVE HORSEPOWER. Fifty-five, when not a SINGLE person in the entire Miata community has obtained these numbers, irregardless of money spent. Forgive me for being a "little" skeptical.

So, here's the deal. No more talk about finding water and oil passages, no more talk about reshaping and reforming intake and exhaust ports. You find me a 160whp BP with just head mods, and I will shut the **** up. Until then, though...
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