Why turbo your car and get only 160whp? You can get there NA anyway for 2k. - Page 5 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-17-2008, 10:15 AM   #81
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 2,084
Total Cats: 0
Default

to get any power out of a miata motor it will need to be enlarged to 2 liters and THEN have stronger rods, about 10.5 or so pistons, then the intake/exhaust, then the head. There is a reason that it comes last besides the headache it causes to work on compared to an intake, because it will usually net you the least amount of horsepower comparatively. However with a 2 liter i believe 160+ is very achievable, but you don't have 2 liters do u?
mazda/nissan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 10:18 AM   #82
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

I really wish Gibb was a member here....Better yet Fuji Racing.


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/350414



all the head-flow in the world ain't going to make up for the lack of cam flow, displacement, compression, and revs...


hell, rev a stock BP motor to 15,000RPM and it'd be close to 150rwhp, assuming it can maintain 50rwtq and the rods and valvetrain haven't exploded.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 10:25 AM   #83
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
m2cupcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,244
Total Cats: 291
Default

Just throwing this out there: I bought a salvage 99 engine from Mazmart and it made 133whp with an ecu, header and straight pipe. That's bone stock 9.5:1 static compression. It may have made a little more if leaned out up top.
m2cupcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 10:42 AM   #84
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canton, Ga
Posts: 1,707
Total Cats: 19
Default

Hell, I'm about $4000 into my engine not including standalone, header, exhaust, etc. its pretty much a 99 engine with more displacement, larger valves and a bit more compression.... and I make about the same power as m2cupcar there but more torque. If I wanted 160rwhp I would probably need to sink in another $2-3k on porting, a better header, cams, IRTB...

I say it flat out cannot be done under $5k, Talking a long block + manifold only, unless your dremel can bore the cylinders and do a valve job, and you have a flow bench...
Stealth97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 10:57 AM   #85
Elite Member
iTrader: (7)
 
samnavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: VIRGINIA BEACH, VA
Posts: 6,020
Total Cats: 175
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
You wanna know the reason? It's a waste of time. It's not impossible, it's just stupid to do.
No, it's not stupid. If it's your thing, then it's your thing... like guys with remote mounted turbo's and shark teeth in their grill.

The point everyone is trying to make is that it costs a ****-ton of money to do it. $2k will get you a set of custom cams, a decent valvetrain, exhaust stock, and maybe the rest of the hardware.... maybe even enough for MS (build yourself) and some injectors (used) and a fuel pump (used). And maybe enought for about 20 other odds and ends that pop up.

Then if you did every single bit of labor, and had the greatest port job in history that somehow magically came out to flow evenly across all 4 cylinders, then managed to do all your tuning via wideband on the street, the just spent $50 more for 3pulls with your local club... you still wouldn't get 160whp. It's just not gonna happen.

Cutlass, remember, this thing started cause you told some newb he could... but you have yet to produce anything but wishful thinking. Your response that "it's not my job to prove anything" is crap. If you're telling guys that it's possible, but the reason nobody has done it in the history of several million cars with BP's sold in them is because it's stupid to do it...?

Do us this favor at least if you're that convinced you're right.
Start a thread over at miata.net in the NA Power Forum with this title:
"I know how to make 160whp NA for $2k".
Then do a writeup of your magic formula... and we'll see what kind of response you get from a really wide audience.
samnavy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 10:59 AM   #86
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
m2cupcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,244
Total Cats: 291
Default

Here's a 99 engine, totally stock bottom end with B&B. Head was decked to make 10:1 compression (rule limited). Cams, the Mazdacomp "Production" shim-under-bucket valve train, adjustable cam gears were added. Same ecu and header/exhaust that was on the stock motor above - and same dyno tuner. These cams were focused on torque vs. peak hp for roadracing. I don't think this was the last dyno tune on the car, but the peak numbers were very similar, just worked more on the power after the peak torque. There's probably right at $5k in this setup with ecu, bottom end work/build, and cylinder head parts. That said, the build was based on a set of rules, so doing what you want to make the same power would probably be cheaper. I'd much rather get the same power from a turbo just so I didn't have to live with the lumpy cams. They're cool, for a short time.
m2cupcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 11:00 AM   #87
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Floriduh
Posts: 882
Total Cats: 0
Default

"You're a dick" "No, you're a dick". Geezus, get over it. Some of the "tech" thrown down here is wrong anyway, from all sides. Enough with the name calling. Yea, it's fun you can say nasty stuff on this forum, but sometimes enough is enough.
soflarick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 12:11 PM   #88
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default

I think its possible for cutlass to reach his goal, absolutely. Just think, Honda S2000. 2 liters 250 hp. Stroke the miata engine to 2L and rev it to 9000 rpm like the Honda engine and you can make 250HP........at like 9000 rpm. You gotta love math right.
Saml01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 12:47 PM   #89
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,450
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
I think its possible for cutlass to reach his goal, absolutely. Just think, Honda S2000. 2 liters 250 hp. Stroke the miata engine to 2L and rev it to 9000 rpm like the Honda engine and you can make 250HP........at like 9000 rpm. You gotta love math right.
Of course, but, as the Miata can only use one cam profile, it'll probably have to idle at ~2500 RPM and it'll belch and spit when taking off from a standstill at anything less than 4000 RPM...but if that's your thing...
bripab007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 12:48 PM   #90
Elite Member
iTrader: (39)
 
Zabac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: High Point NC
Posts: 4,854
Total Cats: 8
Default

the whole point here is under $2000
Zabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:01 PM   #91
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Oh, and I call complete and total bullshit on this. Theres no farking way in hell you could BORE a small ford out to 400+ cubic inches. Not a ******* chance in hell.


Tell me again how someone bored a 302 to 400+CID?
We also raised the deck height on the 302. We machined a plate that went on top of the deck, and the wetsleaves pressed into the plate/block assembly. I think the plate was 1" thick.

We bored the cylinder out to the water jackets, and installed wetsleaves. We milled the sides of the sleaves so that when pressed into the block, they touched each other from cylinder to cylinder. Then bored the sleaves to a 4.230" bore. That leaves .150 between the cylinders, but more everywehere else.

This gave us a 4.230 bored, and a 4" stroke. Area of a cylinder is equal to pie times the radius squared, times the height. That half of 4.23 is 2.115. That number squared is 4.473. That number times pie is 14.05. That number times the stroke is 56.212. That number time 8 cylinders equalls 449.7 cubic inches.

I believe it was 440 cubic inches when it was done, so I think the stoke may have been slightly less. Anyway, got to go to Linear Algebra.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:09 PM   #92
Junior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Brunswick, Maryland
Posts: 262
Total Cats: 0
Default

I would like to throw my .02 in the ring...

I built a 575 HP 350 block...which could run 91 octane...it ran solid for 3 years (racing)...and I only put $1300 into it...

No one can ever say something is impossible...for all we know...the OP could have been an engineer and was trolling for advice...
boardboy330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:30 PM   #93
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Cutlass:
How can you compare a small block v8 designed in the 1960's to a BP? It's not valid.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:35 PM   #94
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth97 View Post
Hell, I'm about $4000 into my engine not including standalone, header, exhaust, etc. its pretty much a 99 engine with more displacement, larger valves and a bit more compression.... and I make about the same power as m2cupcar there but more torque. If I wanted 160rwhp I would probably need to sink in another $2-3k on porting, a better header, cams, IRTB..
I'm sorry but that's kinda sad. I haven't dynoed my car but based on the cars I've raced my BP has to be putting down 130hp, maybe slightly more.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:38 PM   #95
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Here's a 99 engine, totally stock bottom end with B&B. Head was decked to make 10:1 compression (rule limited). Cams, the Mazdacomp "Production" shim-under-bucket valve train, adjustable cam gears were added. Same ecu and header/exhaust that was on the stock motor above - and same dyno tuner. These cams were focused on torque vs. peak hp for roadracing. I don't think this was the last dyno tune on the car, but the peak numbers were very similar, just worked more on the power after the peak torque. There's probably right at $5k in this setup with ecu, bottom end work/build, and cylinder head parts. That said, the build was based on a set of rules, so doing what you want to make the same power would probably be cheaper. I'd much rather get the same power from a turbo just so I didn't have to live with the lumpy cams. They're cool, for a short time.
[IMGttp://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t86/m2cupcar/race/dynosheet39c.jpg[/IMG]
No that's un-possible!

If you knew what you were doing you could cut some corners and still make 160hp compared to that setup, the driveability would just suck.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:40 PM   #96
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Just throwing this out there: I bought a salvage 99 engine from Mazmart and it made 133whp with an ecu, header and straight pipe. That's bone stock 9.5:1 static compression. It may have made a little more if leaned out up top.
what's nice about the older motors is you can tune them pretty easily with the VAF

That setup with adjustable cam gears and a little more tuning would be great for the price.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:43 PM   #97
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Of course, but, as the Miata can only use one cam profile, it'll probably have to idle at ~2500 RPM and it'll belch and spit when taking off from a standstill at anything less than 4000 RPM...but if that's your thing...
Ding ding, now you've figured out why there aren't $2000 160hp BP's... it would only be effective for track use, and even then it would be far worse than a turbo.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 02:56 PM   #98
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
Ding ding, now you've figured out why there aren't $2000 160hp BP's... it would only be effective for track use, and even then it would be far worse than a turbo.

uhhhh but i thought you were arguing it?!
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 03:04 PM   #99
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
uhhhh but i thought you were arguing it?!


Oh no, no, no. I never EVER said it would be a good idea, my original response was to the jackass on m.n that wanted a miniscule turbo that makes full boost at 2000rpm or something, and I sarcastically told him to just build an NA for response if he just wants 160hp. It's possible, but like building a 160whp turbo setup, it's a waste of money IMO.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 03:13 PM   #100
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,367
Total Cats: 1,331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth97 View Post
Hell, I'm about $4000 into my engine not including standalone, header, exhaust, etc. its pretty much a 99 engine with more displacement, larger valves and a bit more compression.... and I make about the same power as m2cupcar there but more torque. If I wanted 160rwhp I would probably need to sink in another $2-3k on porting, a better header, cams, IRTB...

I say it flat out cannot be done under $5k, Talking a long block + manifold only, unless your dremel can bore the cylinders and do a valve job, and you have a flow bench...
I'm sorry but that's kinda sad. I haven't dynoed my car but based on the cars I've raced my BP has to be putting down 130hp, maybe slightly more.
Dodge Caravans and Honda Odysseys?

You've just recieved a bunch of real-world examples of people NOT doing what you obviously think is "easy". Calling every setup that doesn't agree with your theory "sad" isn't going to make the stock bottom end 160whp car just magically appear. The people you're insulting now have more experience than the both of us combined, so tread how you will on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
I think its possible for cutlass to reach his goal, absolutely. Just think, Honda S2000. 2 liters 250 hp. Stroke the miata engine to 2L and rev it to 9000 rpm like the Honda engine and you can make 250HP........at like 9000 rpm. You gotta love math right.
1. Honda S2k = 240bhp
2. S2k = 202-205whp even with boltons
3. 9000rpm = not possible on a stock bottom end
4. If heads were hoses, the F20C would have a fire hose and the BP would have a coffee straw
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
91 1.6l turbo complete part out. Tony the Tiger Miata parts for sale/trade 63 12-29-2016 03:23 AM
[CT] 1999 Mazda Miata 10th Anniversary Edition - $5800 Jike Spingleton Cars for sale/trade 3 09-20-2016 05:33 PM
elesjuan's mediocre 95 Miata adventure (google fiber edition) elesjuan Build Threads 8 02-16-2016 09:36 PM
Turbo 1995 Miata Low mileage Clean Tekel Cars for sale/trade 29 02-05-2016 05:16 PM
New here, saying hi, here's what I'm workin with. SuperSneakySecretSquirrel Meet and Greet 5 09-06-2015 09:30 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:14 AM.