Why turbo your car and get only 160whp? You can get there NA anyway for 2k. - Page 6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-17-2008, 03:23 PM   #101
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Dodge Caravans and Honda Odysseys?

You've just recieved a bunch of real-world examples of people NOT doing what you obviously think is "easy". Calling every setup that doesn't agree with your theory "sad" isn't going to make the stock bottom end 160whp car just magically appear. The people you're insulting now have more experience than the both of us combined, so tread how you will on that one.



1. Honda S2k = 240bhp
2. S2k = 202-205whp even with boltons
3. 9000rpm = not possible on a stock bottom end
4. If heads were hoses, the F20C would have a fire hose and the BP would have a coffee straw
My friend's autocross car runs 15 flat stock, and he has an intake/header/exhaust. We're even from a roll. This isn't scientific but if my car is keeping up with his it's running pretty well. That's not the point of this thread.

I have nothing wrong with peoples setups not making big NA hp numbers (well unless you've dumped 6-7 grand into the motor LOL) because, like my autocross car is set up, responsiveness and a good torque curve are generally far more useful than peak numbers. This is part of the reason they don't think my magical 160hp motor is impossible, because if they built one it would be built right!
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 03:36 PM   #102
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,370
Total Cats: 1,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
I have nothing wrong with peoples setups not making big NA hp numbers
And yet you've now insulted two different people for that exact thing.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 03:44 PM   #103
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 178
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
And yet you've now insulted two different people for that exact thing.
You should be a criminal defense lawyer, you are really good at ignoring most arguments and focusing on certain ones that you can drag people down with. I don't know if you're doing it because you lack debate skills or because you posses them.
1967cutlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 04:26 PM   #104
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 5,382
Total Cats: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
How can you compare a small block v8 designed in the 1960's to a BP? It's not valid.
Read my math you ******* VAG. Its 100% valid BY THE MATH. The STOCK head of a 302 flows more with STOCK valvetrain and STOCK CAM than a BP engine! You're NOT GOING TO PHYSICALLY MATCH THE FLOW OF VALVES IN A BP! Both the total surface area of the valves, lift, and duration! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Pull your head from your *** and learn how cylinder heads and valve train work!
elesjuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 05:30 PM   #105
Guest
iTrader: (1)
 
ray_sir_6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 714
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Read my math you ******* VAG. Its 100% valid BY THE MATH. The STOCK head of a 302 flows more with STOCK valvetrain and STOCK CAM than a BP engine! You're NOT GOING TO PHYSICALLY MATCH THE FLOW OF VALVES IN A BP! Both the total surface area of the valves, lift, and duration! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Pull your head from your *** and learn how cylinder heads and valve train work!
2v heads don't flow as well as a 4v head. So they don't compare. I'm not taking sides, just pointing out the apples to oranges comparision.
ray_sir_6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 05:42 PM   #106
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post

Explain to me how you're going to obtain numbers ANYWHERE Near what AFRs head work did on a 5.0 PER CYLINDER Horsepower gain with a ******* dremel and some spare time? Do you have some hightech flowbench stuck up your *** that we'd like to know about? I'm just curious....
Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan
Read my math you ******* VAG. Its 100% valid BY THE MATH. The STOCK head of a 302 flows more with STOCK valvetrain and STOCK CAM than a BP engine! You're NOT GOING TO PHYSICALLY MATCH THE FLOW OF VALVES IN A BP! Both the total surface area of the valves, lift, and duration! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Well, there is a lot more to it than valve size.

I'm only going to discusss the valvetrain, but of course, there are other improtant factors such as the angles of attack, the placement of the valves in the combustion chambers, valve shrouding, the effects of overlap with different valve layouts, etc.

Our motors are DOHC, not SUHC. We don't have rocker ams that will deform at 7K RPMs, nor do we have pushrods that can bow from the load that is increasing by the square of the RPM. A stock 302 won't make power past 4800 RPM's because it can't fill it's cylinders. A stock miata will continute making power past 4800 RPM's, because it can. However, it too will stop breathing well prematurely. The comparison you posted suports what I'm saying, the AFR heads flowed better, but the RPM peaked in relatively the same place.

On setup clearly has the advantage of a more stable valvetrain that is much better suited for high RPMs. It has two small valves that are lighter than one big one, which results in less load put on the lobes of the camshaft. It can spread this reduced load to two seperate lobes on the cam as well, cuting the reduced load yet in half. It has less reciprocating mass, and more rotating mass, which is ideal.

There, the different designs of the valvetrain is an important factor. If the miata head can be improved to flow more air, and it's valvetrain is up to the task, it has more potential to make HP than a SUHC engine.

In short, your wrong, there is a lot more to it and a 4V head does flow more air than a 2V, and has more potential for improvement.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 05:59 PM   #107
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967cutlass View Post
Alright you ******* dick, I'm sick of you trying to "call me out"

Oh it takes at least 5k to turbo your car? RLY? I'll be making a lot more power than you are on my BP for about $1500

And yes you can build a 160hp NA BP. JUST a good head/cams and exhaust can get you to 150. Raising the rev limit and using more aggressive cams and possibly fuel management could very likely get you to 160hp, especially if you raise the compression ratio, and - or use race gas.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:01 PM   #108
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
2v heads don't flow as well as a 4v head. So they don't compare. I'm not taking sides, just pointing out the apples to oranges comparision.
2 big ******* valves > 4 little ------ valves
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:02 PM   #109
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 5,382
Total Cats: 43
Default

I still disagree that the miata head vs a stock ford 302 head would flow more air, but do agree about RPM and valvetrain load/weight.

Dude I did the math! I took the AREA of BOTH intake valves of the stock BP and its LESS AREA than the Stock 302 head intake VALVE! Come on! Simple grade school math manG! Unless you're gonna sit there and tell me Pir2 doens't apply equally between a 2 and 4 valve motor..

I would bet money if you did a cc of the volume on a miata intake port you'll still have less than 165cc which is the volume of the intake port of the AFR 302 head. The opening on the head alone is MUCH larger than the little tiny opening on a BP cylinder head. I might just measure the volume of it myself.
elesjuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:07 PM   #110
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,900
Total Cats: 0
Default

My general impression of the intelligence of our forum has dropped significantly as a result of the backwards thinking and ignorance exhibited in this thread.
Arkmage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:12 PM   #111
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 5,382
Total Cats: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
We also raised the deck height on the 302. We machined a plate that went on top of the deck, and the wetsleaves pressed into the plate/block assembly. I think the plate was 1" thick.

*snip*


Okay, thats a little bit more than "we bored a 302 out to 440cid" on your first post about it.

How long did that setup hold together? What heads were used?
elesjuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:16 PM   #112
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
No. It can't vary the valve timing. It can only switch between two cam profiles, and that's controlled by RPM.
It will vary the timing, but only in the sense that there are two profiles on each camshaft. It will increase overlap after the changeover, and overlap is a function of valve timing. Just semantics of course. iVTEC is the better, fully variable valve timing solution.

It's actually RPM, throttle position, and coolant temp.

EDIT: O JEEZ I'm talking about VTAK on mt.net
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:29 PM   #113
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Okay, thats a little bit more than "we bored a 302 out to 440cid" on your first post about it.

How long did that setup hold together? What heads were used?
It was a race motor a guy was building. He used windsor heads I believe. Not sure how long it lasted, but I know it lasted at least one season. Granted, it was built to make power where he was only allowed to use a 302 block, or else he would have started with a 351 with a higher deck height to start with.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 06:57 PM   #114
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Floriduh
Posts: 882
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkmage View Post
My general impression of the intelligence of our forum has dropped significantly as a result of the backwards thinking and ignorance exhibited in this thread.
Yup. This POS thread is out of control and would be better served closed.
soflarick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 07:16 PM   #115
Junior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 331
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soflarick View Post
Yup. This POS thread is out of control and would be better served closed.
99NBMia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 07:23 PM   #116
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,899
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soflarick View Post
Yup. This POS thread is out of control and would be better served closed.

no way! it's fun.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 07:25 PM   #117
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soflarick View Post
Yup. This POS thread is out of control and would be better served closed.
wrong forum!!!!!!!!!oneoneone
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 07:26 PM   #118
Junior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 331
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
no way! it's fun.
Its actually informative my my self being a super noob to miata/ford motors...
99NBMia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 07:31 PM   #119
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,904
Total Cats: 4
Default

LOL Gude lol

Look up thier shi...y history
Pitlab77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2008, 07:48 PM   #120
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

179 hp -> ford

130 hp (guess?) -> miata

179 / 2 = 89 hp per head

I'm going with 4 valves for the win. Let's see what F1 cars, motorcycles, or ANYONE who wants to make a lot of power on a small motor does.

I say put yamaha 5 valve heads on there. Or, do what I've seen countless times before: buy a sub-$1000 supercharger used, crush your regulator and go drive. Why would anyone do NA mods? That said, headwork is worth a LOT. Some porting and deshrouding makes sense, DIY if you read up first. Cams are HUGE - everyone's been saying it, you're giving up bottom end for it.

And start with an NB motor. 145 crank hp is a better place to start than 120. Lastly: 40 hp gain on 179 is 22% gain. So the claim isn't 40 hp but ~1/4 more power.
Why compare to a low stage head job which the biggest claim in "smog legal"?
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
91 1.6l turbo complete part out. Tony the Tiger Miata parts for sale/trade 63 12-29-2016 03:23 AM
[CT] 1999 Mazda Miata 10th Anniversary Edition - $5800 Jike Spingleton Cars for sale/trade 3 09-20-2016 05:33 PM
elesjuan's mediocre 95 Miata adventure (google fiber edition) elesjuan Build Threads 8 02-16-2016 09:36 PM
Turbo 1995 Miata Low mileage Clean Tekel Cars for sale/trade 29 02-05-2016 05:16 PM
New here, saying hi, here's what I'm workin with. SuperSneakySecretSquirrel Meet and Greet 5 09-06-2015 09:30 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:00 PM.