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Old 12-22-2009, 12:32 AM   #1
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Default ABSURDflow/TSE Time Attack Miata v.2010 upgrades

The other thread is like 600 posts long so I figured I'd start fresh, because there are a lot of changes happening after RTA.

To recap:

Started with this:
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then we did this:


then we went here (RTA '09 finale at ACS):
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with this:


and promptly did this:
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Not 100% sure what happened with the motor. I personally think it was a combination of extreme load and inadequate charge cooling, and then a slightly lean injector dictated which cylinder failed.

The old setup:
-'99 block
-'99 head, stock
-Supertech 84mm 8.7:1 pistons
-Belfab rods
-ACL race bearings
-ARP head studs
-OEM seals/gaskets
-BE billet OPGs

New setup:
-'02 head
-'02 block
-Supertech 83.5mm 8.6:1 pistons
-M-Tuned rods
-ACL Race bearings
-ARP head studs
-OEM gaskets
-BE gears

A few parts came over from the blown motor. The entire oil pump ('01 oil pump won't accept the BE gears), head studs, the turbo setup. We pushed hard to get to the last Miata Challenge event, but ended up not making it because my sinuses hate me.

SO

Here's the plans for 2010:
-Precision 350hp intercooler Precision Turbo Intercoolers from HorsepowerFreaks
The current core I am using is an eBay piece, 22x6x2.5 core. Great for street use, probably not going to cut it for 350-400whp and track duty. I want an efficient core, and I think that's my best bet.

-AEM EMS. The MSPNP wasn't doing anything wrong, but it wasn't doing some things at all. I want individual cylinder trims, knock sensing, onboard datalogging, VVT control, and real closed-loop boost control. AEM does all of that, and with the Series 1 ECUs on closeout right now they are a smoking deal. I paid about $1100 for mine.

-3.909 gears. The 4.10s were just a bit short, but the 3.63s were only going to work for ACS and I don't go there enough to justify sacrificing all the other tracks. I just drove a 6-speed/3.909 combo at Buttonwillow and it's absolutely perfect.

-VVT. It's worth some power, the only question is where. Advance down low, retard up high is just the beginning here, I think. I want to play with some cams and see if I can get away with a seriously aggressive high-duration intake cam with the VVT.

-Intake manifold. Going to start out with the Edelbrock VictorX manifold and their 75mm throttle body as a baseline. Tim wants to do one in the spring, so we are going to start with that and see where I want to improve it. I'd like to play with a dual-chamber design but we'll see where we end up.

-Headwork. This is the one thing I've never played with in this car. In order to get the power I want, it's not going to be avoidable. This is a subject I'm quickly discovering to be kind of a black art. I want to get exotic with some of the stuff. Inconel exhaust valves and coatings on the chambers/valves for extended high-load pulls. It's going to start with a valve job and some P&P and we'll see where we end up.

-E85. This is still a few months off, since I'm going to have to essentially rebuild the fuel system, but the benefits can't be ignored. Lower EGTs, lower cylinder temps, increased detonation resistance, and low cost make it a good choice for high-boost track work. I'll have a ~95 octane map for fun track days since I expect to use ~7-8 gallons of E85 per 25 minute session.

This thread should focus on headwork for now. I've done my searching, and I've read about as much as I care to on 3-angle vs. 5 angle vs blended. What I'm really interested in is the chamber coatings, polishing, things that can help me reduce detonation and make the motor a little more stout in general. I'm leaning towards a shim-under conversion so I can really crank up the cam lift, but I'm not 100% sure about that either.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:56 AM   #2
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Not upgrading the turbo parts? Oh wait, its the finest money can buy, lol.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:59 AM   #3
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Good luck Sav, just when I thought you couldn't get much faster...
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:08 PM   #4
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post

-Intake manifold. Going to start out with the Edelbrock VictorX manifold and their 75mm throttle body as a baseline. Tim wants to do one in the spring, so we are going to start with that and see where I want to improve it. I'd like to play with a dual-chamber design but we'll see where we end up.

Have you considered the PerformerX? The slightly longer runners should put it's power band within a better range for your motor, the VictorX is tuned for something like 7000-10000RPM, while the PerformerX 4000-7000RPM. If you search through honda-tech I'm sure youll find a bunch of people that complain the victorX gave them no extra peak TQ and lost a **** ton of low-end due to this fact. You could also look into the Skunk2 Pro IM as it should be better within a 8000RPM rev limiter as well. There's also the BLox, which is crazy cheap ($175 on ebay)

...I'm looking for the post of all the available IMs on a flow bench....cant find it.

here's a good writeup, too bad the dyno graphs aren't showing up: Intake manifold test results on a 1.8L Edelbrock ITR IBspec Take a look! - Honda-Tech notice how he hates the victor X but like the performer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT
The Performer X smokes the VictorX up to at least 8,800 on that motor. For 95% of the all motor Honda vehicles on the road, the PerformerX would be a better choice, by far.
Alas, the dynos don't load on this one as well...



I also urge you do not us a Mustang TB, you can get an ITR or civic TB for cheap and get it bore out to 70mm at www.maxbore.com you also don't have to redrill the manifold...
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:07 PM   #6
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here's a dyno of a GSR with the stock IM then the Skunk2:



powerband is perfect.



now check out a skunk2 vs. a victor X:



victorx is failboat.

Quote:
Built motor (NA or Boost)- I would not second guess, or think twice about buying the Performer X. It is the best intake manifold made for the bseries motors, unless you want to spend about 1000-1300 for a custom made ENDYN manifold, which i dont think its worth it unless youre looking for huge hp with a boosted setup. The performer x, for the street, and even track, is a great mani. Same design as the skunk2, only it flows much better, usually with significant gains over the skunk2 in the 4000-8000rpm range. It is designed for optimum mid range, and great high end as well.

The only problem with the Performer x is the following: FITMENT. A lot of people can argue that they fit good, and THEY DO, BUT nothing can beat the SKunk2 pro series on fitment. They fit like a glove, no problems whatsoever. As for the performer x, it fits ok, but its more of a pain. In the end, they will both fit fine, but installation is much easier on the skunk2.

Great Fitment and Good Performance: Skunk2
Not so great fitment and Outstanding Performance: Performer X

As for the Blox, it is an exact replica of the skunk2, so i would not be surprised that it can compare or maybe outperform the Skunk2. It will not hold its ground with the Performer X though. Its really your choice, but the Performer X has held its ground, and proven time and time again, that it can make great power no matter what setup, no matter what motor, no matter what rpm. Thats why i voted for it.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:22 PM   #7
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I definetly want to see some P P. Has anyone ever looked at the exhaust ports and notice the black soot on the bottom? Atleast a heavy 1 16th. I may do this.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:45 PM   #8
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The build still impresses me everytime I read a thread about it. Do you have a budget for this TT miata excluding the parts that break unexpectingly?
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:56 PM   #9
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Not really. Budgets produce cars that are compromised - I have no desire to drop huge unnecessary wads of cash, but I'll spend the money it takes to get the results I want.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post

victorx is failboat.
Interesting. I doubt I'll have much of a fitment issue. I wonder whether it will fit next to the shock tower, though.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:10 AM   #11
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+1 on skunk 2 or performer x. we went with the skunk2 because of fitment issues (ls swap crx turbo) and it's awesome. we gained almost 30whp over the stock intake and non port and polished head on a low boost setup. only other thing changed is raised rev limit by 600 rpm. the 1.8 ls motor is pretty comparable to our miata motors as well. displacement, non vtec head, rev limits (stock), even power output. although they don't make quite as much torque as our motors do, they do like revs more than ours do.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:13 AM   #12
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The only problem with your build, Andrew, is the lack of powercards.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Interesting. I doubt I'll have much of a fitment issue. I wonder whether it will fit next to the shock tower, though.

yeah I know, I think it's more of a matter of space between the firewall and stuff.

anyways, just thought the idea of a better (and cheaper) IM might be of importance to you...although I'm not under Spec miata lap times, so you can disregard my input


IIRC this is 9-10" runner:
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:55 PM   #14
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Hey Sav,
Sick little machine you have mate. Ive been a member for a while just dont post much as im in Oz but Iv'e read all your build threads and its been a really good read, lots of useful info, hopefully i'll implement some of it on my milder version turbo mx. Look forward to seeing results/outcome and some new vids of this machine doing some damage(destroying other cars) at the track, keep it up and all the best.
rxmx,
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:55 PM   #15
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Bump. Tried to fire the new motor last week and got zero oil pressure during priming. Pulled the filter after 2 minutes of 10-15 second intervals, and it was bone dry. The pump is from my blown '99 with the billet BE gears. I figure a piece of aluminum had gotten into the relief valve and stuck it open. Got the new pump from Comp tonight, pulled the old one off. The valve wasn't stuck, but I don't think it's supposed to have this wear pattern on it:

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BE gears into new '99 pump and off we go.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Got the new pump from Comp tonight, pulled the old one off. BE gears into new '99 pump and off we go.
Simple oil pump swap right? Too bad you just described hours of work. Shame to have to do all that work for such a small piece. What's your engine removal-and-mounted-on-stand time down to with such a simplified car? All the reroute pipes and oil cooler lines has slowed me down a bit.

**** drag slips and lap times, let's have a thread racing to the fastest engine/tranny pull.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:05 PM   #17
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I thought I had a similar issue when we went to prime my newly stock car with a motor I rebuilt in it. Turned out it was just my cluster needles were dead because the meter fuse under the dash was blown. It was not blown when I parked the car. Happened somehow, gremlins...who knows...
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:20 PM   #18
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Simple oil pump swap right? Too bad you just described hours of work. Shame to have to do all that work for such a small piece. What's your engine removal-and-mounted-on-stand time down to with such a simplified car? All the reroute pipes and oil cooler lines has slowed me down a bit.

**** drag slips and lap times, let's have a thread racing to the fastest engine/tranny pull.
Nick and I working together can do it in an hour. I can do it myself in 90 minutes. That's idling in the car to on the ground outside of the car. Having everything simplified helps a huge amount, obviously - no coil packs or CAS to attend to, no transmission wiring, no exhaust to unbolt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
I thought I had a similar issue when we went to prime my newly stock car with a motor I rebuilt in it. Turned out it was just my cluster needles were dead because the meter fuse under the dash was blown. It was not blown when I parked the car. Happened somehow, gremlins...who knows...
I thought the same thing. My oil pressure is teed in with my turbo feed line. I took the line off the pressure gauge and stuck it in a bottle of oil, then cranked it - nothing came out. After doing that for a while, I pulled the filter, and it was dry too. I just q-tip swabbed the oil passage right off the oil pump and it is totally dry.

Maybe the gears were dry and there wasn't enough vacuum produced to suck air? I tried the shopvac trick as well, to no avail. Either way, that relief valve doesn't look healthy to me. Best that it gets changed now, vs. waiting 5 hours and having it mulch an engine.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:24 PM   #19
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Might want to take the gear cover off and prime it with engine priming grease.

That's one thing I've never care/remembered about during rebuilds. I just start it up and notice it takes 5-10 seconds for pressure. But it always shoots up to 90psi. Sounds like that woulda been a bad risk in your case.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Might want to take the gear cover off and prime it with engine priming grease.

That's one thing I've never care/remembered about during rebuilds. I just start it up and notice it takes 5-10 seconds for pressure. But it always shoots up to 90psi. Sounds like that woulda been a bad risk in your case.
I did the same thing to my built 99 - primed it by pulling the plugs and cranking it until I saw oil pressure on the gauge. With no residual oil anywhere in the motor, and no developed wear patterns, you want to give it all the help it can get for the first few minutes of life.
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