Nice.
And it will slide in from bottom? That's impressive, I've yet to see a 1piece dp with that many bends do that.

That sounds like a lot of work.

Make another casting. :giggle:

EFR6258, BP6D longblock, stock NB2 exhaust, and a low-boost actuator with 5 turns of preload nets me 4.5psi peak, tapering to 4psi at redline. Hopefully that puts the stupid "can't run a 6258 on a stock motor" BS to rest.

See you all at MRLS tomorrow :party:

Now put a free flowing exhaust on there and do that again.
Also you're gonna flog this setup at the track all weekend right?

I have a 3" Enthuza on the shelf that will go on next week, but I really doubt that it's going to go from 4psi to 12+psi just on that.

Come get a ride this weekend :party:

Would have loved to get a ride, but couldn't make it. Hope all went well.
So far I've only messed with 1 EFR miata and it creeps pretty significantly on a free-flowing setup. When I spoke up about it, several others chimed in with identical results. Perhaps defective housings/wgas/whatever, but calling experienced member's first hand results "stupid BS" is really kinda insulting. Also the creep happened past 5500rpm, where the stock exhaust would drastically choke the system and "help" in this case.
In for results with free-flowing system. I hope your results are good and opposite of what some of us have experienced thus far. :likecat:

Waiting for a bolt on solution patiently. Too lazy to fab up piping etc. I know this is the setup I want.

Harry

Ghuys, this thing is legit. I got to finger the SLA and poke around the silver car a bit. After dealing with my ARTech tubular (that is super awesome BTW) I'm still sorely tempted to buy the TSE manifold and downpipe once it readily available. I've handled both the FM and BEGi cast manifolds and they don't hold a candle to this thing. Flow paths are SO much better than any other cast manifold I've fingered so far.

Compared to my ARTech:

1. Turbo sits slightly lower
2. turbine housing inlet is almost centered on the #2 runner (mine is further forward
3. because the turbo sits back further, there is actually room for "activities" in front of the turbo (PS reservoir, cold air box, etc)
4. downpipe angle/radius/clearance looks better than mine (mine is REALLY tight)
5. generally just better clearances everywhere actually
6. its cast (durability)
7. great clearance on PS/AC equipped cars

I really like that the turbo is snugged up to the block a bit better than mine, giving more clearance everywhere. Mine looks like its kinda hanging out in space on its own. For those that have not handled an EFR, its no lightweight and my manifold makes me a little nervous with all that weight out there sitting on the manifold.

It is win, do want.

Savington, do you mind if I post the pics I took?

sounds like win, please poast pics :likecat:

I can email them to you, or I'll just post them here when Sav gives the OK :party:

Post away.

I quickly snapped these on my phone so I could reference the clearances on my own setup.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1444069487


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1444069487


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1444069487


They are HARDLY comprehensive, but I think you all will get the gist. :party:

:likecat:

Any pics of IC piping routing?

Looks "traditional" to me.

Traditional IC pipe routing. With the turbo centered on #2, the compressor outlet dumps just ahead of the factory coolant hose, so the IC pipe sits between that and the A/C compressor. It then exits straight under the forward UCA bushing, through a hole in the undertray, and then runs along the outside of the undertray and into the intercooler.

lookin' good!

:brain:

2002 BP6D VVT Longblock, stock internals (10:1 CR)
Trackspeed EFR B1-frame 347SS cast manifold
Trackspeed 3" downpipe, Stock NB2 exhaust
BorgWarner EFR6258 turbo, 0.64a/r T25 turbine housing
MSLabs MS3 Basic ECU
Flow Force 610cc injectors
5psi intercooled

Everything else stock. Timing and fuel is very conservative, no doubt there's power left on the table, but this is what ran all weekend at MRLS. I'll put a 3" catted Enthuza exhaust on this week.

Datalog attached below.

Attachment 237566

Looking good to start with. Any pictures of the down pipe? Got a price for it yet? When are the group buy orders shipping?

Here's an awful pic of the downpipe just before finish welding and installation. I'll try to get some better ones this weekend when it comes out to get drawn up in CAD. Expected retail on the DP is $500. Kits shipping late December or early January.

Attachment 237565

Ask and ye shall receive. This is the same exact setup that produced ~135kpa on the dyno this morning. Low-boost can (179282), 5 turns of preload on the flapper (as few as you can get and still get the nut all the way on the actuator rod). I swapped to an off-the-shelf catted 3" Enthuza and started autotuning on the way home tonight. Peak boost is 147.4kpa, so I'll call that 7psi.

This pull is 2-3-4 from a 6-speed/3.636 combo. Butt dyno says ~185whp. No creep whatsoever. :dealwithit:

Attachment 237560

I'm well aware that several others have had creep issues, but it never made any sense to me, and it really doesn't make any sense now. If I had to throw a guess out there, I would say that the wastegate can alignment is really, really easy to screw up. ~2 degrees either way and the flapper would get pulled up and bind, and you saw that a binding wastegate would screw stuff up on Gordon's car.

Anyway, it's totally doable, and I'd love to see a couple other people get their setups dialed in like this one is. There's no reason why stock motor crew can't enjoy EFR goodness.

Well that's really good news. Because G's car was a nightmare in that regard, and even after all that effort I'm not 100% satisfied with it. Perhaps it's just that janky bumpy housing that's causing it, who knows.

I've seen plenty of applications where it gets blown open up top (these are MAN BOOST cars, obviously) but it was a 1st for me to see it bind, creep, and then just be really shaky in boost even with the medium can.

Yours looks way smoother.

can has tse trubro
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444197497

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444197497

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444197497

Wow that manifold looks hella spiffy. Definitely deserves coating goodness.

This describes my current setup perfectly (it binds badly due to the re-clocked turbo) so I'm glad to hear it's not an issue with the TSE manifold and is why I'm in on the initial Group Buy of the manifold after Savington responded to my queries regarding this concern.

IMO this is the biggest issue with the EFR turbos and DIY manifolds. If I was to do it over again with a DIY manifold, I'd build it with an external wastegate and forget about the internal wastegate - it's one less unknown to deal with that really makes or breaks a build.

Just a quick FYI on pricing for those of you on the fence. The 10 or so of you who got in on the GB in June are my special friends, so you guys will get discounted pricing on everything else that we release for the kit, including the EFR-specific inconel studs, downpipes, oil/water line kits, and the intercooler kit when we release that in the spring.

If you are ordering a kit today, you're also going to qualify for discounted pricing on some of those same items. It won't be quite as deep of a discount, and it may not be on every item (the cheaper stuff may not be discounted at all), but it will be something.

If you wait until we have manifolds in stock, you'll get your parts immediately, but you'll have to pay for the privilege.

IOW, get off the fence and get in. :party:

Dang. I was going to try to buy Gesso out of his early slot, but you loaned him the model on Sunday to see if it would fit in the Exowhatever and now he's talking about keeping the manifold ;)

Will / are you offering coatings on the manifold/turbo/downpipe?

^^ Asking the important questions I was thinking about this the other day, but didn't follow through. It would be awesome to be able to get the manifold and DP sent straight to Swaintech or another ceramic coater before they come to me.

Eventually I'll get around to taking the turbo apart and sending the turbine housing to be coated on the outside.

EDIT: I got worried for a second because there was so much nut swinging going on over that other cast manifold. I thought the site went crazy and people lost their minds.

At some point, yes. Keep in mind that the material (347SS) already keeps more heat inside the manifold.

Ceramic coatings are hard to do correctly. 80% of the coatings I see on cars are cracked or flaked off really quickly. There are only two, maybe three companies that I would trust to coat a manifold and have it hold up over time. I will probably leave coatings to you guys to start out with, and make some recommendations for sources.

Swain Tech Coatings | Industrial Coatings | High Performance Racing Coatings | Technical coatings to solve problems of heat, wear, corrosion, and friction

Embee Performance

It is very easy to send things off to Swain.

I don't know tons about these turbos for the Miata, but do they manage boost well or is an external wastegate an option? I run a re-routed EWG on my Outback and love the easy to nail boost and frankly it is quieter than some intake systems.

Look up at post #681. The EFR's internal wastegate gives up nothing to an EWG setup. If we can maintain 7psi with a full 3" exhaust, there's absolutely no reason to add the complexity and cost of an EWG to the setup.

I would coat this downpipe so hard.

Having reviewed the manifold & EFR from recent photos... I can definitely say the TSE EFR Manifold is on my to do list next year.

Awesome and I would agree on complexity...well, and esp. on cost. It has just not been my experience with past turbo applications, esp. if you remove a cat.

Going from the stock 2.25" exhaust to the 3" Enthuza exhaust brought the peak boost up by ~12kpa. Removing the cat won't make an appreciable difference. The boost control is solid :)

how many degrees did you have to clock the chra to get it to not bind?
looks like 15-20 from the pics

I would guess ~15deg. I will try to measure it tomorrow. That slight angle also allows the drain line to clear the factory lower coolant hose.

The only thing I worry about with internal waste gate is the problem I have had with my turbo because of the way my front housing is clocked (discharge at approximately the 3 o'clock position). I am worried that I will need to completely start from scratch with my charge piping rather than just adjust. Mind you, this is because I had to do something different, but I like it. Either way, EFR is in my future.

Aside from boost creep, the other question is how well closed-loop EBC works with the EFR IWG. The EWG I have on my 2863 is much more forgiving in the PID tuning than my IWG 2560 was, and it's also capable of doing almost a 4:1 ratio between max and min EBC pressure.

--Ian

I talked to andrew about EBC and he said he was going to play with it soon. 1.4 has huge EBC changes. And you shouldn't compare EBC between pre-1.4 and 1.4.

lol, glad I made sure I was on 1.3.x before having the car tuned :facepalm:

now dyno again running like 5° more timing and a half point less fuel please :P

Fuel map needs work, yes. I will do a polished tune once I get the EBC valve into the system. I am going to stay very soft on the timing, though, since it's a 10:1 bottom end.

FTFY

:)

Did you ship the first batch of turbos on the GB with the 15deg clocking or stock clocking? I didn't look at the 6758 carefully other than to say, yeah big turbo!

FTFY

Yes, CA91 too. Just one more motivator to get a low-compression forged shortblock into this thing so I can use the 6758 and E85.

They all went out as they were delivered to me, so no special clocking. I will write up some detailed instructions on how to clock the turbo properly.

Why not higher compression if e85?

Flex-fuel. The car needs to be able to run on pump gas when I can't get E85.

Makes sense. Looking forward to seeing flex fuel results. We need more tuning info on it for miatas.

I saw a 3D printed version of the manifold at Miatas @MRLS.
The pictures don't show how smooth the bends are and how nicely aimed they are into the turbine inlet.

Sav should show a short animation video of the rendering being spun around so you can visualize the 3D layout of the passages. :)

I almost can't believe it took 20 years for someone to come up with a cast mani like this for the miata. Seems to me the blatantly obvious solution for durability and flow.

I also got to drive an EFR6258 in the steep service road hills. (Thanks Gordon!) Very bottom end spool is similar to the GT2560, but 3000 RPM and up is quicker.

Andrew, you haz PM.

YESSS. This kit is driving all the turbo defectors back to the light.

:hatecat:

:likecat:

It's a little freaky how quickly it snaps into boost from 3k+. I datalogged the '02SE going from 104kpa to 135kpa in 0.2sec, faster than I could get the throttle snapped fully open. It's a riot.

You are very welcome! It was nice meeting up, however brief. Glad you enjoyed it! :bigtu:

That was setup to be "soft" and the EBC was disconnected. I should have plugged that in for you ;)

I want to see you get this working on the MSLabs MS3-Basic that's in the car, so I can copy things and have a hope of getting Flex working myself.

I was never a defector, as I've never had a trubo. What I wanted could not be met by turbos until now. I drove the snot out of my previous setup while others solved all the trubo problems. I enjoyed that setup and everyone who rode in or drove my car enjoyed it too.

I, uhh, did a thing.

I is very excited to fondle. If you need someone to break it in for you let me know. I'll find a 1.8 somehow. :)