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Old 12-08-2015, 03:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by TNTUBA View Post
See. That's the thing. You want to know how to get more power out of your setup...and you dont know how much power you are curretly making (other than a cell phone app) nor do you know how much power the current setup is capable of making.

Until you get the car properly tuned....everything else is just a total W.A.G.
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All that money spent on turbos, superchargers, engine internals, your new Mercedes C63 that you've mentioned several times, and the hundred bucks for three pulls on a Dynojet breaks the bank?
I do have 1/8 mile times, but no that's not a dyno graph and I understand that.

But I think you both can agree I need more than 3 dyno pulls to tune the car on a dyno. I've seen Sav post about that before (dyno tuning) and from what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems like even if I have the fuel dialed in well, I'll still be at least 1-2 hours minimum to get the spark dialed in to MBT. Right?

What do you guys mean by "properly tuned on a dyno"? I'm guessing just getting the spark dialed in? The car starts/idles/drives great,and at wide open the car hits target AFRs (12.0:1) within 0.1-0.2 AFR. At this point I know spark needs to be tuned to MBT. Is there anything else I would properly be tuning on a dyno?

Eric, just asking, but you posted that timing map in my fuel thread and I reposted it here. Your timing is flat from 4,000 and up. Is that all tuned to MBT? How were those numbers created?
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:08 PM   #22
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To answer your original question. Remove restrictions. Everywhere.
This. It's a lot of boost. The superchager is maxed out for your application. Start making other improvements to the engine so the boost drops. You'll make more power with less boost spinning the supercharger at the same speed/ratio.
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:20 PM   #23
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This entire thread is based on your virtual dyno results. Something I've never been able to get within 50hp of my actual dyno readings.
then you suck at virtual dyno.
Like, really really badly.
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:22 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
I do have 1/8 mile times, but no that's not a dyno graph and I understand that.

But I think you both can agree I need more than 3 dyno pulls to tune the car on a dyno. I've seen Sav post about that before (dyno tuning) and from what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems like even if I have the fuel dialed in well, I'll still be at least 1-2 hours minimum to get the spark dialed in to MBT. Right?

What do you guys mean by "properly tuned on a dyno"? I'm guessing just getting the spark dialed in? The car starts/idles/drives great,and at wide open the car hits target AFRs (12.0:1) within 0.1-0.2 AFR. At this point I know spark needs to be tuned to MBT. Is there anything else I would properly be tuning on a dyno?

Eric, just asking, but you posted that timing map in my fuel thread and I reposted it here. Your timing is flat from 4,000 and up. Is that all tuned to MBT? How were those numbers created?
Expect to spend 2-4 hours on the dyno tuning for MBT. Dyno time with a tuner is generally $125-$175 an hour. So plan between $400-$600 for dyno time, which in the grand scheme of things is a small drop in the bucket compared to what you have spent so far.

I am on the dyno time bandwagon. After you get on there and do some tuning, then come back and figure out what to improve.
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:26 PM   #25
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Time slips, seat of the pants and compairing timing maps from one motor to the next is really useless. When you compaire my map to your the numbers look similar, but with my car being an NA and base spark timing still set by a timing light and adjustments to the CAS there could very easly be 1 or 2 degrees difference. My car also has significantly higher static compression.

When I say properly tuned...I. saying take the car to a reputable shop with a true load bearing dyno....not some "egojet" with a hand brake.

As for my timing map, Russ at DIYAutotune in Atlanta had it on the dyno for close to 5 hours the last time it was with him.

If they charged $300 an hour(I have no idea what the going rate for a professional tuner is) that's still only $1,500. If you factor in a value for your labor (which you have to) that is a drop in the bucket compaired to what you have invested in the car.

You will constantly chase issues which may or may not be real as long as you dont have the car fully tuned.

It idles great...wonderful, you have your afr's "dialed in" but you really don't know if they are optimal for making power on your specific setup, you might have timing close....but you don't know. I have seen 2 degrees in timing make as much as a 15% difference in power output. But until you get it on a dyno....you wont know those things.

I have offered that same advice to you multiple times and you have chosen to ignore it will you continue to make 10psi more boost and significantly less power than similar setups.(according to your cellphone app)

I do think you need a better header. Like yesterday. To be using stock sized primaries on a car like yours is pointless.

I do think you need to pulley your blower to hit the max rpm you want to spin it at 7,500 rpm...you are leaving power on the table unless you do that.

So. There are my 3 pieces of advice from someone who built a supercharged Miata that was the first Miata EVER to win a SCCA SSM Pro Solo National Championship.
1) Spend $500 - $1,500 and get a good header
2) Pulley the blower to spin @ 18,000 RPM at 7500 (or slower if you find you are spark limited on the dyno) at the same time....pull the boost gauge out of your car...who cares what your boost pressure is if you aren't making power
3) Find a PROFESSIONAL tuner that you trust and take your car to them....leave it there and come back with some money and pick it up.

But what the hell do I know.
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:29 PM   #26
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And wow....holy typos. Sorry about that. Was typing on my phone.

Lolz
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:32 PM   #27
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..........or just post in the retarded rotrex supercharger thread about how we're all idiots and superchargers are awesome and we're all big meanie weanies

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Old 12-08-2015, 03:34 PM   #28
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Who's Rotrex? Never heard of her.
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:11 PM   #29
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what's your IATs? supercharger are pretty damn thermally inefficient. I can't imagine how much heat your adding to the intake charge by working the air up to 28 psi.

I'd look at intercooler efficiency. What's your temps in and temps out. If your not able to drop you intake temps back to a reasonable level then look into water meth injection and maybe even spraying DI water on the intercooler face.

And yes, a proper DYNO tune should be a no brainier with a setup like yours. A properly tuned Spark table is where power if made, not fueling. And I'd go richer than 12:1 with that much boost.
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:44 PM   #30
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I realize there are a lot of factors to consider, but as a general rule shouldn't you be able to tune to MBT on E85 without running into detonation? I've had great results with Virtual Dyno, it's very repeatable if you keep parameters as consistent as possible and make pulls in the highest gear your comfortable in.

What I do:
Create a new tune with +2 degrees timing across the spark map
Make 2 pulls on current tune
Make 2 pulls on new +2 degree tune
Review pulls in Virtual Dyno and adjust spark table to the table that made the best power
Repeat as needed

I'm certainly not trying to argue that this method is better than dyno tuning, but it's free.
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyotani View Post
what's your IATs? supercharger are pretty damn thermally inefficient. I can't imagine how much heat your adding to the intake charge by working the air up to 28 psi.

I'd look at intercooler efficiency. What's your temps in and temps out. If your not able to drop you intake temps back to a reasonable level then look into water meth injection and maybe even spraying DI water on the intercooler face.

And yes, a proper DYNO tune should be a no brainier with a setup like yours. A properly tuned Spark table is where power if made, not fueling. And I'd go richer than 12:1 with that much boost.
Just pulled the logs off the ecu from the 1/8 mile. It shows AITs were 15*F above ambient at idle before the run, and when I crossed the line in 4th on the rev limiter, I was 75*F above ambient. So 60*F rise going from a stop to top of 4th. Not perfect, but it's a lot of boost. I do have E85 though so I think I'm ok.
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
I realize there are a lot of factors to consider, but as a general rule shouldn't you be able to tune to MBT on E85 without running into detonation? I've had great results with Virtual Dyno, it's very repeatable if you keep parameters as consistent as possible and make pulls in the highest gear your comfortable in.

What I do:
Create a new tune with +2 degrees timing across the spark map
Make 2 pulls on current tune
Make 2 pulls on new +2 degree tune
Review pulls in Virtual Dyno and adjust spark table to the table that made the best power
Repeat as needed

I'm certainly not trying to argue that this method is better than dyno tuning, but it's free.
Yes this is how I've tuned it so far. The last time I added 1.5* it gained 30whp/30tq. Based on that I know I'm not at MBT yet since if I were, it wouldn't have showed big gains with 1.5* of timing, it would have been very small or no gains if I hit or went past MBT.

Eric, I used the header I have (a modified 01 header) knowing I would need to build/buy a different one down the road. You're right though, I need to build a custom one. Guess that can be a winter upgrade.

And I agree on the pulley part too. The pulley I wanted would have set my redline around 8,000 at max blower RPM, but Whipple stopped making the pulley I'm running right after they sold me the pulley initially. And I asked Mike if he could tell me the backspacing, or what the closest matching pulley they do have is, and he was no help at all. Whipple has been terrible in my experience. So I'll probably have to get a custom pulley made, or buy a pulley that's close and have it machined to the right size to space it correctly.

Or, if I knew the SC wouldn't instantly grenade spinning it to 20,000, I'd probably keep my pulley and just do that.
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Old 12-08-2015, 05:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Just pulled the logs off the ecu from the 1/8 mile. It shows AITs were 15*F above ambient at idle before the run, and when I crossed the line in 4th on the rev limiter, I was 75*F above ambient. So 60*F rise going from a stop to top of 4th. Not perfect, but it's a lot of boost. I do have E85 though so I think I'm ok.
Do you have pre intercooler temps? I'm really curious as to how hot those are.

If you're 75 over ambient into the intake manifold I still think misting water on the face of the intercooler would help. My friend built one with home gardening supplies for cheap and used the windshield washer fluid reservoir. More air density = more fuel = more power.
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Old 12-08-2015, 05:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by cyotani View Post
Do you have pre intercooler temps? I'm really curious as to how hot those are.

If you're 75 over ambient into the intake manifold I still think misting water on the face of the intercooler would help. My friend built one with home gardening supplies for cheap and used the windshield washer fluid reservoir. More air density = more fuel = more power.
I haven't measured air temps pre-intercooler. I measured pressure, it's now 1 PSI higher pre-intercooler vs at the plenum at redline. Based on boost pressure and being an SC, probably 350-380*F exiting the SC. Not even sure if a GM AIT sensor would work, probably need a thermocouple....
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
probably 350-380*F exiting the SC.
Well, that there ain't helpin' ya much, now is it?

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