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Old 10-23-2015, 02:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
how does downshifting make up for the lack of about 50rwtq on all these plots?
It doesn't. Average power from 5K to 7K is lower than a turbo car with the same peak power, no doubt. Turbo car would thus be faster.

Still it's a nice setup, but it's not a positive displacement SC, and it's not a turbo. As mentioned this setup would be very easy on the rods, 250whp with this would last forever since it's not making the torque that bends rods.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:15 PM   #42
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how does downshifting make up for the lack of about 50rwtq on all these plots?
I dunno, I'm mostly just trying to rile you up, since you've been even more relentlessly negative than usual.

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Old 10-23-2015, 03:21 PM   #43
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ive actually been restrained...
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:44 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Not bend rods?
This is why I went for a Rotrex.

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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
It doesn't. Average power from 5K to 7K is lower than a turbo car with the same peak power, no doubt. Turbo car would thus be faster.

Still it's a nice setup, but it's not a positive displacement SC, and it's not a turbo. As mentioned this setup would be very easy on the rods, 250whp with this would last forever since it's not making the torque that bends rods.
The reality is you NEED a 6 speed to have decent gearing to keep it on boil. I went back to a 5 speed (for shift feel) and I regret it. The Rotrex needs a short ratio box to keep it in the power band.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:53 PM   #45
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Many people are willing to trade loss of midrange torque for greater reliability, OEM cold starts, easier install and fully removable with ease.

Megasquirt is great if you love to tinker and will take a lot more time to run as smooth as OEM. Can it be done? Sure can, but you will invest either many $$ in tuning fees or many hours learning the system. Not everyone has the time and patience to become a diy tuner.

Personally I will give up 15-20 HP any day over having to deal with megasquirt again. Been there done that to me and many other people its just not worth the extra hassle.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:56 PM   #46
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Many people are willing to assume a lot of stuff and blindly trust some half-*** compromise versus learning and doing things the proper way... and then enthusiastically defend their awful decision to not put in the effort.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:58 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Many people are willing to assume a lot of stuff and blindly trust some half-*** compromise versus learning and doing things the proper way... and then enthusiastically defend their awful decision to not put in the effort.
I'm sure you sew your own clothes, crafted your own watch, constructed your own home, etc, too, right? Oh? You compromised on those things, did you?

robert
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:07 PM   #48
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No, I bet he had professionals do it. You know, just like if you took your megasquirted car to someone that knew what they were doing, paid money, and drove the well running car home.

It's a compromise. You give up adjustment range, and better precision and control while in boost, for those "oem starts".

Next person that tells us Mazda spent millions of dollars and countless hours calibrating the OEM ecu needs to go drive a stock MSM.

PS: I actually had throttle response and driveability on my MSM better than OEM. That's gonna blow your mind.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Many people are willing to assume a lot of stuff and blindly trust some half-*** compromise versus learning and doing things the proper way... and then enthusiastically defend their awful decision to not put in the effort.
Some people rather spend time driving their car then countless hours in front of a laptop. Will the fuel curve be as nice? No. But you will still double horsepower vs stock and as long as the timing and fuel are within a safe margin then they will be more then happy with the compromise.

Given the rotrex can run with much higher timing and leaner AFR's before knock compared to a turbo a simple timing card though not perfect should be a safe, and simple solution.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnorexicRoadster View Post

Given the rotrex can run with much higher timing and leaner AFR's before knock compared to a turbo a simple timing card though not perfect should be a safe, and simple solution.
What allows you to make such a stupid claim?

Can you link me to the thread/blog where this was tested and proven?
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Originally Posted by AnnorexicRoadster View Post
Some people rather spend time driving their car then countless hours in front of a laptop. Will the fuel curve be as nice?
You know you have the option to pay someone that knows what they're doing to tune it right?
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:16 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
No, I bet he had professionals do it. You know, just like if you took your megasquirted car to someone that knew what they were doing, paid money, and drove the well running car home.
The amount of time it takes to fine tune idle, cold start, and power maps to all run as smooth as OEM takes time even with a knowledgeable tuner. Factor in that the standalone costs more then a power card, then you will spend more time on the dyno and road fine tuning it which equates to more $. It's an investment alot of people rather not make.

If the powercard works within the power goals of the consumer it's the easier choice. It's also a much easier option for people that live in areas where obd2 emissions tests exist. Also having the ability to read OBD2 codes is a extra bonus feature you retain with a piggyback.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by AnnorexicRoadster View Post
The amount of time it takes to fine tune idle, cold start, and power maps to all run as smooth as OEM takes time even with a knowledgeable tuner. Factor in that the standalone costs more then a power card, then you will spend more time on the dyno and road fine tuning it which equates to more $. It's an investment alot of people rather not make.

If the powercard works within the power goals of the consumer it's the easier choice. It's also a much easier option for people that live in areas where obd2 emissions tests exist. Also having the ability to read OBD2 codes is a extra bonus feature you retain with a piggyback.
1) some people drink craft beer and others bud light. it's an investment they're not willing to make
2) paying more money for a better outcome makes sense even to my 2 year old. the only time it's ok to spend more money and still have band aidz are for people in crazy states like CA that need that CARB sticker.

the OBD2 and smog/inspection portion of this argument, as well as ease of install and simplicity are your only legs to stand on. I'll give you those. Oh and the "easier on the engine due to making low torque" part too.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
What allows you to make such a stupid claim?

Can you link me to the thread/blog where this was tested and proven?


You know you have the option to pay someone that knows what they're doing to tune it right?
No he's right. Rotrex isn't making as much torque in the midrange where knock is most common, thus it's less likely to knock. That part is true. Whether that is an advantage is up for debate.... But it is true, less power, less chance for knock. Also SC setups have lower backpressure, so less internal EGR at full load, lower temps in the combustion chamber during combustion, so again less chance for knock.

That said if you guys want to have a pissing contest on whether a perfectly tuned standalone is better than piggy backs, yall should go do that somewhere else. I swear I thought this we did that like 10 years ago.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincoln Logs View Post
This is why I went for a Rotrex.



The reality is you NEED a 6 speed to have decent gearing to keep it on boil. I went back to a 5 speed (for shift feel) and I regret it. The Rotrex needs a short ratio box to keep it in the power band.
I could understand that based on the dyno chart.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
No he's right. Rotrex isn't making as much torque in the midrange where knock is most common, thus it's less likely to knock. That part is true. Whether that is an advantage is up for debate.... But it is true, less power, less chance for knock. Also SC setups have lower backpressure, so less internal EGR at full load, lower temps in the combustion chamber during combustion, so again less chance for knock.

That said if you guys want to have a pissing contest on whether a perfectly tuned standalone is better than piggy backs, yall should go do that somewhere else. I swear I thought this we did that like 10 years ago.
he wasn't talking about making less power. he was talking about taking leaner afr's and more timing before encountering knock.

I'll decide when to post here and when to post elsewhere. Thanks

Last edited by 18psi; 10-23-2015 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:40 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by robertcope View Post
I'm sure you sew your own clothes, crafted your own watch, constructed your own home, etc, too, right? Oh? You compromised on those things, did you?

robert
Way to move the goal posts and make a false equivalency; I was making the classic argument of something working vs something working right, and you decided to try to reframe it. D+, see me after class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnorexicRoadster View Post
Some people rather spend time driving their car then countless hours in front of a laptop. Will the fuel curve be as nice? No. But you will still double horsepower vs stock and as long as the timing and fuel are within a safe margin then they will be more then happy with the compromise.

Given the rotrex can run with much higher timing and leaner AFR's before knock compared to a turbo a simple timing card though not perfect should be a safe, and simple solution.
Like I said, people are more than enthusiastic to defend their decision to not put in effort. Thanks for proving my point.

Like quite literally if your argument is "It's hard and I don't understand it", and someone takes the time to show you resources and help you through it, and then you still go "But it's hard and I don't understand it", you're being a stick in the mud. Not to point fingers or turn this into a helldump, but there are a lot of straight up "dumb" people who have figured out how to install and run a Megasquirt. Patching in a Powercard or whatever is literally 90% of the work of going to a standalone; it's like going on a 6 hour road trip and at 5 hours in you declare "man, I don't feel like driving for another hour, I'm going to turn around and drive 5 hours home". No one is stopping you, its your decision, but you're not convincing anyone when you explain why.
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:09 PM   #57
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Does anyone know if they will produce a semi DIY kit?

SC, bracket and pulley system, oiling and cooling system etc?

I'd like to reuse my megasquirt, injectors, etc. and do my own IC and piping set up to save some pennies.
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
he wasn't talking about making less power. he was talking about taking leaner afr's and more timing before encountering knock.

I'll decide when to post here and when to post elsewhere. Thanks
I'm not going to do your homework for you. It's also the reason why you can run 10:1 compression motors (look on 949's site they recommend 10:1 for a fully built motor for rotrex)

significantly less back pressure, colder intake temps for same volume of air moved, much more progressive power curve. All these equate to a more det resistant setup.
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:35 PM   #59
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It's not homework it's you pulling stuff out of your butt and calling it a fact
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:38 PM   #60
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Thats how I got through school
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