I'm at 6000ft elevation (~18% lower power) , 3.63 rear end (~7% less power), no real power mods. I also think its slower with the non oem intake. The gains/losses are well within VD's error, i couldn't get good a/b testing data. So I can only go by butt dyno.

Ok. So is the spedo reading low because of the gears? I've never driven a NA car at 6000 to know what that's like. I guess that's the reason though. You sir need some boost!

Haha, that's the plan.

Speedo is actually pretty close to actual. It was reading high with the 3.9 rear end, and now with the 3.63 it is within 1mph of gps steady state.

I'm shocked that your car isn't rolling backwards down the hill with a 3.63 at altitude!

that sounds awesome. Induction noise is my personal favorite.

Yeah for boost! What are your plans? How many boost?

Basically anything I can get my hands on. I made an offer on the town bicycle absurdflow/fm turbo kit, but it was lower than another offer.

I really shouldn't spend any of the money I have left, since I'm having trouble with a solid source of income, and i need rent money. buuuut, my life sucks so much right now, and boost is the best self medication.

Ah. Well when it's time to go fast, I look forward to seeing some boost in your car! I have posted some cheap turbo builds in the past, boost on the cheap is doable.

I hope the race cooling gear you have sells soon with the temps going up. Maybe the gopro setup as well since folks are probably going to want those now that track season is upon us!

^that would be lovely

So Ed helped me price out a turbo kit from GASP Flyin miata... Budget kit without injectors or turbo comes to 2300 dollars, I'll try and source mustang? ev14 injectors? IIRC and get an ebay turbo.

Gunna call fm tomorrow and see what fitment I need.

good luck with that. many ebay turbo's have different 5bolt flanges from the standard garrett

also youneed inconel studs
and don't get the crappy FM core that's now made in china, since you can get one for like 50

Why wouldn't you just go taco manifold if you're trying to save money and are getting an ebay turbo anyway?

Not sure, haven't bought anything yet.

I vote eBay taco mani. sr20 turbo. ebay/cx racing intercooler.

I heard ebay turbos and manifolds can work and make good power if done right.

The manifold at least is hard to argue with. Very low cost, beefy construction, and bolts up and has external gate support too. If you go that route, I would recommend going external gate since the ebay mani supports it, and external gate is way better anyway. Also opens up a lot more turbo possibilities.

I have an excel sheet printout of part numbers, links, prices, etc for my complete turbo setup I built last year in my build thread. It was about 2K for a 500whp (capable of more) turbo setup for parts. If you follow the build thread I document some of the parts that were changed, modified, etc to get everything to work well and fit right. The only ebay part that actually failed on me was the oil return pump, and I now run a BMW M5 oil pump instead (lol also bought on ebay but it's genuine bmw part) and it's working great.

Also the MK turbo setup is pretty much the deal of the decade for bolt on miata performance delivered. I would consider that option as well.

This. I seriously do not understand why anyone would bother with eBay stuff in any way when MK exists. Unless he doesn't have the type you need available and you can not wait....

Yeah... Unsure why he's not considering that. Maybe because he wants a 'track ready' setup? That was my guess.

I wasn't sure where Lars stood on the 'approved use' for that i.e. if it was supposed to be a street setup and all bets were off if it was used on the track.

I have no personal experience with MKTurbo, but a fabricated manifold would not be my first choice for a reliable track turbo system.

--Ian

Lars has come right out and said that he does not recommend his setup for track use. He's not necessarily saying that it won't work, simply that it was not built with that type of use in mind.


that price for FM bits includes the inconel studs. It's actually $1874 leaving out the intercooler core, turbo, boost gauge and pod, and intake box. Though adding their box back in for $80 doesn't seem like a terrible way to go. Can also cut a bit from the price by dropping the FM heat shield. You can go with stainless steel hardlines (oil & water) for just a bit more.

Wouldn't you just buy one of those SR20 drop in replacements? Either way, some research for a cheap turbo would be required but well worth it, and I'd go this path over that setup in the classifieds no question.

Whatever, I disagree.
He's gonna do what, 1 track day a year? maybe two?
the tubular will have way better spool and transient response, no contest. So 90% of the time, it will be 100% better. And I'll be shocked if he manages to crack it. And I know how he drives, no surprises there.

The rest is almost the same.
factor in the 300 for a brand spanking new sr20 t25 that's already custom welded to work with the setup (which is what it has), and another 80 for core (with welded in tabs, so more like 150) and you're at about the same cost. and the classifieds setup has inconel and upgraded hard lines, and intake box, and shield, and everything else.

I'm not trying to sell you that kit, lol, I could care less, but cannot agree that a FM setup will be better. I like both, but the awethummm thpool thetup is cooler-er

You really think there will be a perceptible difference in spool? ... What's the point? I mean, an FM Mani with 2560 spools so quick it's almost silly. Just going to a 2554 would be silly spool. If the tubular is better yet.... Wow.

It's just hard for me to support paying for something with zero guarantee or warranty or whatever over an FM setup at the same (or very nearly the same) cost.

hard to say tho. If he is going to do several track days, FM is prob better. But the absurdflow Mani should be pretty stout too.

:dunno:

hustler posted plots showing the difference
does the FM setup come with a warrantee? I never heard of that

Not sure a chineseium cast manifold would be either.

I have not even ran his parts, but from the pictures of his setups I've seen on this forum, and the results of people putting miles on them, and one guy running 12's in the 1/4 many many times with the setup, I think it's a really good street setup. If you're going to drive your car on the street 98% of the time, I think it's a great option. Given his post above, I didn't read that he was looking to spend a fortune to build a baller class race car turbo setup, more like budget is tight and needs boost.

I didn't say I was recommending the taco one, either.

FM warrants their stuff for some period of time if you buy it new, I don't know about used.

--Ian

I really want to bring my manifold over to the foundry across the bay and see how much to replicate a batch in some nice stainless. My manifold is beginning to show it's age, but I have almost 23k and I have 175 1/4 mile passes on it. Would buy again :bigtu:

Still not nearly the same as a track day with a decent driver.

I have been in Turbofan's car and I agree.

:skid:

The MKTurbo kit is an amazing value for what it is: a street turbo kit. Drag racing included, as you have shown.

But the sustained full throttle and heat experienced on track is a whole other level.

At this point, Marcello needs to really decide what he wants and plans. But he has said he wants a track reliable turbo kit. MKTurbo isn't one, and I don't believe tacotaco is either. FM parts with inconel will work.

For reference, here's a frequency bucket plot of my throttle position for a single lap at Laguna last week:

http://www.codrus.com/miata/fm2r/lag...tle-bucket.png

So out of a 1m48s lap (I was being held up by traffic :)), 32% or 35 seconds was at full throttle. If you assume all laps are like this, then 6 sessions * 20 minutes per session * .32 is 38 minutes of full throttle per track day. That's the equivalent of 190 12 second 1/4 mile passes. :)

--Ian

Here is roughly what you can expect from the "thuper duper awethum pothum" kit in the classifieds?

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...112cd6140e.png

No way. that looks like poop.

I'd fully expect over 200tq by or before 3k rpm on the thuper thetup. What setup is the above dyno from?

I did a whole bunch of research on that setup, I even think I had a thread about it showing plots of kinda similar setups.

That is an FM II kit with a GT2554R. The exhaust is unknown.

I agree the spool looks pretty lousy. It pretty well matches other FM dynos with the 2560. Manifold flow?

This 2560 dyno has a 3" exhaust. The scaling is different, but the curve looks similar.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4fee881287.jpg

I take it all back, and I'll see myself out.

Ahh, that's an FM plot, now it makes sense.
The manifold is part of it, but the biggest reason is elevation.

Ed is right, it's not like a gt2560r on a log is lazy or a slouch, I was just dead set on making the BP behave like a big ol v6 at the time I was going go run that setup. I'm sure it will be a hoot for whoever runs it. On a vvt 1.8 with supporting mods I'm sure it will be a riot.

This is 100% correct. I build the manifolds beefy and to the best of my ability. I even get the t3 flanges specifically made to fit the M10x1.5 TSE Inconel studs. Now saying that I sell a $250 manifold and I don't trust it to actually hold up on track with a fast driver. I don't know what will fail, but I without a doubt expect the manifold to fail somehow if you are fast on the track. I bet Savington or BBundy would get less then a day out of it. On the other hand, someone in HPDE 1/2/3 might get a dozen events out of it or more without issues. I could "possibly" build a track reliable manifold, but it would be priced at what Artech charges, and I have zero desire to get into that market. Especially since I think the TSE manifold is the set it and forget it option. I say this with both an Absurdflow and TSE manifold sitting in my garage.

Got it. The elevation issue had not made it from the back of my beer-addled brain to the frontal lobe in this discussion. Good thing my elevation is only 530 feet.

Just to clarify, I won't be doing anything track related for many years.

I want the low cost boosts for the smiles on the street. Just a little bit of full throttle every day. Eventually, in maybe 3-4 years, I'll upgrade again.

Lars' kit doesn't come with intercooler or intake setups, and pushes the cost to the same as full diy FM kit without turbo.

The thuper duper kit on here scares me, since I have been burned in the past with a kit that had changed hands many times. There is also almost zero customer support for me if I buy that kit. 2700 seems steep for this huge risk.

Find a complete MSM setup for under 1k. I've seen quite a few over the years.
That would probably be the easiest and cheapest "temporary boost" you could find.
You could throw it in with everything on your car staying exactly the same, and not needing any additional supporting mods aside from oil feed/drain/water lines, since you already have MS3, clutch, exhaust.

Huh, ok, I'll add that to the list of things on my radar. I'll see what I can find!

That's actually a really good idea. Scour craigslist. I've seen a few pop up. Maybe if there's a setup in a different CL you'll find someone here that may pick it up and ship it to you for a six pack or a small fee. Should give you some more pep and you'll be able to get more out of the setup than the MSM ever could.

^ The drawback is the uncertainty of the actual condition of the parts. He expressed some uneasiness about the used kit for that reason.

Honestly, that is most of the reason I have jumped on that kit. For not much more, I can get new stuff with at least some support.

The "thuper duper kit" started its life in my hands. It's based on the FM DIY kit concept, with A LOT of upgrades that no one is talking about that do NOT come with the FM DIY kit. It's also never been installed AFAIK. I think its only "used" because several people have owned it. The theme when I was putting it together was to buy the absolute best, most reliable, basic stock block safe turbo kit I could find at the time. Its the culmination of everything I learned here on MT in my early years on MT. I'm happy to answer questions about it but understand its been through a few sets of hands since I touched it so some stuff may have changed.

The turbo is a Nissan part, and the CHRA is a genuine Garrett replacement installed by a Garrett Performance Dealer out of Arizona. It's pretty much perfectly sized for a street application. The T25 flange studs are Inconel, either TSE Inconel 8mm prototypes or FM inconel, I can remember. The rest of the 8mm hardware is OEM Nissan studs and nuts, the downpipe elbow is an FM cast unit because it flows well and is essentially bulletproof. Every stud in the kit is from and OEM turbo Nissan application, installed with Resbond and torqued to spec. The downpipe itself is 2.5" FM and it included the brace. I didn't feel the need to mate a 3" downpipe to a tiny T25 making a target 225hp, and you can still mate a 3" exhaust to that downpipe. The turbo is small enough that its going to spool like a beast anyway so I doubt you'd notice the missing 0.5" of diameter. I had TurboTim build the manifold out of a CNC ported BMC Race flange I custom ordered. Its one of Timmeh's FM replacement manifolds that actually flows. If you look at the FM cast manifold its rather beefy, but its far from optimized. Tim's hardware has a proper merge and I have no doubt it will outflow the cast FM unit. It will require trimming a couple of the exhaust manifold studs, but that's a small price to pay. The kit also has all the GOOD bells and whistles that FM sells with or as options for the FM2 turbo kit, things like stainless hardlines for coolant, airbox, heatshield, etc. Silicone pipes, Turbosmart BOV, etc. The list goes on and on.

If you guys are going to compare the "thuper duper kit" to a FM DIY, you owe it to yourself to go back and read the previous FS threads for that kit and REALLY take inventory, and understand what you are actually getting. Sellers of that kit have generally done a poor job of describing all the things that are included. (sorry guys, its true)

I'm not kidding when I say I regret selling it. Its absolutely perfect for a stock block street build. No joke.

If you are TRULY worried about Tim's manifold cracking (I certainly was not) then buy the "thuper duper kit" sell Tim's superior flowing manifold (to someone who is looking to upgrade an FM kit) and use the proceeds to buy a new or used FM cast unit. You'll still probably come out ahead.

^good to know, but the guy currently selling it wants 2500 (plus 200 for injectors), and he bought it for 2400 or less TWO years ago. I offered him 2000, no dice. Another member offered 2300, not accepted.

I'd have it all installed in literally a day or two, just kind of sad.

Give it a little more time until the next major 'Merican holiday and you might be pleasantly surprised with what is coming out.

On the flip side of the FM setup, mine comes with the full 3" exhaust while theirs does not. I don't know if you already have a 3" exhaust or not, but that is a factor to think about. My setups are also priced shipped, verse FM which uses their shipping department as a money maker. The one thing that FM does have over me is EGR support, depending on how you deal with emissions that may or may not being something you want/need.

Also no matter what route you go, I would stay away from the eBay t2 turbos. I tried 2-3 of them a good numbers of years back and was not overly happy with any of them. Picking up a used SR20 t25 for $100 is my goto cheap t2 turbo.

My T25 is doing 14 psi at 2800 rpms with the FM manifold. It makes boost from as low as 1800. I doubt you can out spool this on manifold alone.

Also as a side note I would take an Absurdflow manifold over a FM manifold any day of the week.

To be fair, he paid $2400 plus shipping and is selling it for $2500 shipped. It will likely be shipped in several medium to large boxes, and shipping is not cheap these days, no matter what Amazon would have you believe. I just shipped a midpipe, and it cost me a little over $40 for the one box.

[Edit: I just used the shipping calculators at TSE and FM, and they charge $82 and $95, respectively, to ship to Dallas. The FM rate includes the intercooler and a few other bits.]

I don't know why it's "kind of sad". It is his kit, and he is free to sell it for what the market will bear. Maybe that is $2500 shipped, and maybe it's less. We will know soon.

At that power level, you can get RX-8 injectors from Rock Auto for $163 shipped.

THANK YOU, G!!!
I originally bought it from G because I totally agree with everything he just said, which is why I defended it a few posts up.

For the record, I would not have considered 2 grand for it either.

If you don't have at least 3-4 grand, you shouldn't be turbocharging a Miata. Period. Because when you inevitably break something and have no money to fix it, that's what's gonna be "kinda sad".

Stop eeeet! You are making me want this again.

Is the turbo ball bearing or journal bearing? The info I am finding is mixed on that point.

inb4partout....again

I *THINK* its a ball bearing CHRA. As I remember it, not all the Nissans used ball bearing turbos from the factory and I expect Garrett would have exchanged like for like, so it *COULD* be a journal bearing unit. I'll dig around in my email today and see if I can find the info because I'm almost positive I asked that when I sent it in to TurbosDirect for the CHRA exchange.

Exactly.

That kit is a combination of my borderline obsessive compulsive attention to deal and 18psi take "no prisoners, no compromises" attitude. There is a reason we get along so well.

Ok, to follow up on this I'm struggling to find even the invoice in my email, and that's odd, because gmail is usually all-pro at this. I may have been using a different email account at the time, but I'll keep looking. Sorry for not having a super quick reply :P

If it's a ball bearing turbo, then the price suddenly becomes much more attractive.

The parts list for what we built on the FM site and what is in the Thuper setup is virtually identical.

All that being said, though... Marcello, if you plan to upgrade your turbo setup before tracking the car (beyond a couple autoxes and maybe one beginner-level HPDE day) then MKTurbo or tacotaco DIY setup.

/discussion for Marcello's options

https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...rbo-kit-92976/

not ideal, but along the lines of what I've said

So you want the MK turbo kit. It's new, it's quality, it's affordable, and it hits all your goals minus the intercooler and intake, both of which have been well documented here on how to do on the cheap and easy.

It is poor form to speculate on things you couldn't possibly know. I sold it to him for $2500 shipped, but sent as a gift on Paypal, so that comes out to $2600 or so.

Just buy the damn thing already!

I remember wanting to buy this from Vlad when he listed it. It would be ideal for your elevation, probably nothing will spool faster where you are.