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Old 02-12-2013, 05:56 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Umm, I said it was an FM stroker motor, not an FM dyno or fm hardware. According to the info posted by the cars owner it was running a BEGI manifold and DP with a custom 3" exhaust system..

It's interesting that you assume the info is laughable because you mistakenly assumed it was running an fm turbo.

Jimj
Has nothing to do with the turbo setup. It's laughable because it's on the FM DYNO.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:57 PM   #142
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I am not sure why you guys are giving jimj64 so much ****. There was nothing moronic about his statements. There is some validity there.

I will say that if a car will not go through the quarter mile before running out of gear, it is set up wrong for pretty much every motorsport that involves pavement that I can think of.

Whats interesting about quarter mile runs, is the fact that traction often does not effect the trap speed very much. I have noticed that at times when I have a lousy 60 time from poor traction, I will have a slightly better trap speed, but a poor elapsed time. It is an anomaly of drag racing. However, If a car is severly traction limited, it will suffer in trap speed.

When you get right down to it, I am not so sure that trap speed is really a better way to judge the performance of a motor. A dyno room has a much more controlled environment than the drag strip. It is so easy to fudge the wieght of the car, track conditions, and driver ability when it comes to giving an accurate horsepower statistic.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:06 PM   #143
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Well Jim, if it looks like you are plowing FM's pea patch using FM's mule, then folks might tend to believe you are fond of FM's peas. That's all.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Has nothing to do with the turbo setup. It's laughable because it's on the FM DYNO.
Once again a totally incorrect assumption, FM had absolutely nothing to do with the dyno runs, wasn't their dyno, wasn't FM or anyone from FM that did the pulls.

The dyno runs we're done by Shawn Church on a dynapack dyno. Just for the record I have no clue who Shawn Church is, that's just who the car owner credited with the dyno work.

Jimj

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Old 02-12-2013, 06:15 PM   #145
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Well Jim, if it looks like you are plowing FM's pea patch using FM's mule, then folks might tend to believe you are fond of FM's peas. That's all.
LOL.....that's hilarious, I haven't said anything about FM or their products in this thread. Other than to quote the setup of someone else's car, and I clearly stated that the results obtained on that car were accomplished using BEGI's turbo hardware, I guess I must be BEGI's bitch too.....

Jimj

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Old 02-12-2013, 06:25 PM   #146
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You jumped into a conversation you didn't undestand, and started mouthing off like you did.

OBVIOUSLY there are variables even at the track. You're not smart or special to figure that one out.

The difference is, many dynos you can manipulate the outcome pretty much whichever way you want. regardless of weather, temp, etc. On the track, its not so easy.

So yeah, its possible to have a 300whp miata and not trap 115, but if you're going for a FRIGGEN RECORD, you better be prepared to back it up and you better do it. Which is what we're all talking about. If the dyno spits out a hp number, and at the track HE IS ABLE TO PROVE IT, then he will hold the record.

If that doesn't make any sense, nothing will.
As for your EFR argument. Its cute how you had to clarify that its spool you're talking about after you realized how asinine your original statement was
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:35 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
ScrappyJack, the only reason I posted anything about dyno's vs et/trap speed is because it was stated that some people wouldn't believe a dyno sheet showing he made 3xx hp, but a time slip showing a trap speed >115mph would be proof, I'm saying that it's quite possible for Dann to make over 300 hp and trap under that speed, what if he has wheel spin for the first 200'? All I'm getting at is that there are variables all the way around and that a time slip is no more proof of making a given hp than a dyno, clearly both have their place and both provide meaningful results but some context is required in both cases. Personally I'm anxious to see what the results are regardless of how it's backed up.
Jimj - No argument that context matters. I think it was ***umed that most of the people suggesting 115 - 120 MPH ET range would be done on a clean run, through the 1320', with reasonable DA.

I think we are all on the same page there and others were maybe taking your need to spell out those variables explicitly as being a little elementary. They drive Miatas, so they are sensitive.

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Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
When you get right down to it, I am not so sure that trap speed is really a better way to judge the performance of a motor. A dyno room has a much more controlled environment than the drag strip. It is so easy to fudge the wieght of the car, track conditions, and driver ability when it comes to giving an accurate horsepower statistic.
This is a really fair point but I've found weight to not be as dramatic an impact on trap speeds as most might think. You may have more experience with Miatas specifically, but I've found the old rule of thumb that -100 pounds (-220 -45 kilos) is about 1 MPH all else being equal*.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Once again a totally incorrect assumption, FM had absolutely nothing to do with the dyno runs, wasn't their dyno, wasn't FM or anyone from FM that did the pulls.

The dyno runs we're done by Shawn Church on a dynapack dyno. Just for the record I have no clue who Shawn Church is, that's just who the car owner credited with the dyno work.
I know of Shawn Church and would trust him and his dyno runs as much or more than most other internet tuners. He's not an idiot, for what that's worth.


*Which it never is, caveats ad nauseum.

Last edited by Scrappy Jack; 02-12-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:43 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You jumped into a conversation you didn't undestand, and started mouthing off like you did.

OBVIOUSLY there are variables even at the track. You're not smart or special to figure that one out.

The difference is, many dynos you can manipulate the outcome pretty much whichever way you want. regardless of weather, temp, etc. On the track, its not so easy.

So yeah, its possible to have a 300whp miata and not trap 115, but if you're going for a FRIGGEN RECORD, you better be prepared to back it up and you better do it. Which is what we're all talking about. If the dyno spits out a hp number, and at the track HE IS ABLE TO PROVE IT, then he will hold the record.

If that doesn't make any sense, nothing will.
As for your EFR argument. Its cute how you had to clarify that its spool you're talking about after you realized how asinine your original statement was
Oh I understand the conversation just fine thanks..... I gues you're resorting to personal attacks now because you ran out of "facts"?

Excuse me for clarifying my comment on the EFR, I should not be human and make a statement that could be open to misinterpretation, I'll try to do better in the future...

And just like dyno's can be manipulated, weight/gearing/shifting (driver skill) can alter the trap speed a car achieves on the strip, that's all I'm sayin....Btw, I have seen figures as high as .25 of a second for shift time, if you make 4 shifts that could potentially result in as much as an 8mph change in trap speed (assuming a 1/4 sec results in a 2mph loss in trap speed add wheel spin to that and you could be off 10mph) to be clear i am not stating that it takes a 1/4 of a second to change gears, that is just a number i have seen thrown around. Now let's assume your 500lbs off on car weight on top of that, how much horsepower difference does that add up to? Obviously I'm using numbers at the high end, But you're asserting that all dyno runs are fudged and need to be backed up by a time slip because that would be irrefutable.... Sure you can calculate a fairly accurate horse power output from trap speed (if you have all the variables covered), but is it anymore accurate than a dyno?

Dann, sorry for getting you're thread off topic, I think your work looks awesome and I am anxious to see your results.

Jimj

Last edited by jimj64; 02-12-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:47 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
And just like dyno's can be manipulated weight/gearing/shifting (driver skill) can alter the trap speed a car achieves on the strip, that's all I'm sayin....
Yes, but those can only be manipulated to make the car appear slower than it is, not faster.


The same cannot be said of a dyno run. Hence they want a trap speed to go along with said dyno run.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:51 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
This is a really fair point but I've found weight to not be as dramatic an impact on trap speeds as most might think. You may have more experience with Miatas specifically, but I've found the old rule of thumb that -100 pounds (-220 kilos) is about 1 MPH all else being equal*.
You mean -45 kilos?

Anyway, the math is a bit complex. More or less a function of the percentage of total weight and influenced by the total horsepower. A motorcycle will net a much higher MPH gain from a 100 pound loss as opposed to a tractor trailer. Miatas are by nature pretty darn light so 100 pounds is a pretty good sized percentage of weight loss.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:58 PM   #151
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OK *************

We get it you cannot cheat trap speed in your favour.

So anyway, Im happy with how it looks, it is in fact VERY quiet, the dose is louder than the exhaust.

What I am interested in is circuit times, thats where the results are, trap speed will tell us power under the curve, and at the track response and if it makes the torque where it will be asked for, thats the key for the cars actual goals (not some silly record).

Thanks for the support, this is basically the last chance to suggest anything,

Im concerned that the tie rod bracing the turbo will be an issue, I think the manifold will flex a lot when it gets red hot and then I dont know if the brace will stress the manifold in the other direction.

Dann
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:09 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
The dyno runs we're done by Shawn Church on a dynapack dyno. Just for the record I have no clue who Shawn Church is, that's just who the car owner credited with the dyno work.


Shawn Church has the most notoriously high reading dynapack in the country. We've had cars that dyno'd 260whp on Church's dynapack dyno at 210whp on our dynapack.

Church's dyno cannot be compared to any other dyno, ironic that you would bring up a hp number from Church's dyno. You kind of just proved everyone's point about not being able to claim just a dyno number as a record. Even Shawn himself would tell you not to compare the numbers from his dyno to any other dyno, only to other runs from his dyno.

I bet the car that dyno'd 335whp on Church's dyno wouldn't trap 115mph...

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Old 02-12-2013, 07:17 PM   #153
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OK *************

We get it you cannot cheat trap speed in your favour.

Dann
You mean the horse finally died? Lets make sure.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:18 PM   #154
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Dann, how much run time do you have on it now that it's built? How does it feel in terms of spool etc.? I'm curious how soon the power comes on with the smaller diameter manifold runners.

Jimj
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:18 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Thanks for the support, this is basically the last chance to suggest anything,

Im concerned that the tie rod bracing the turbo will be an issue, I think the manifold will flex a lot when it gets red hot and then I dont know if the brace will stress the manifold in the other direction.

Dann
In the picture under the text that reads, "Built a wastegate bracket from stainless, I was going to weld alloy bosses onto the turbo but got lazy," what would have to happen for the hardline that is run under the tie rod bracing to make contact with that brace (and cause problems)?

I'm trying to think through some scenarios and nothing major sprang to mind and you may have already addressed it in the thread previously.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:27 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Dann, how much run time do you have on it now that it's built? How does it feel in terms of spool etc.? I'm curious how soon the power comes on with the smaller diameter manifold runners.

Jimj
It hasnt been driven in anger yet, Im not silly, it will get dyno'd before anything, I hope its much more efficient through the midrange and spools a LOT earlier, so those areas of the map will not be tuned properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
In the picture under the text that reads, "Built a wastegate bracket from stainless, I was going to weld alloy bosses onto the turbo but got lazy," what would have to happen for the hardline that is run under the tie rod bracing to make contact with that brace (and cause problems)?

I'm trying to think through some scenarios and nothing major sprang to mind and you may have already addressed it in the thread previously.
The hardline wont touch it has at least 10mm clearance from the tie rod and its very solid. The wastegate bracket is the part on front of the turbo made of 20mm SS angle.


Anyone else?
Have a think, cheers.

Dann
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:35 PM   #157
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Dan your threads getting the heat! haha. last time we argued about gas now it's trap speeds!

Lighten up I was only joking about the record to beat being 335whp. We all know that dyno is a bunch of garbage. Time will tell anyway. We will let the data talk.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:41 PM   #158
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Yeh man, I just want to go and beat some of the big well known mx5 shops.

On the aussie forum Ive seen a few of the shops accounts looking over my threads every few days.

Keep em on their toes. The car might be given to a very good driver and see if we can take the outright miata record at the local track. That would be nice.

Dann
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:49 AM   #159
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****** finally back at 0 props, was at -22 at the start of this thread.

Dann
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:20 AM   #160
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****** finally back at 0 props, was at -22 at the start of this thread.

Dann

impressive, too bad youre back to -1. lol.

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