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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1472777)
The '97 has three wires, but the third wire is a shielding ground for the other two. You could theoretically pass 12v up one of them, the signal up the other, and then wire a new ground as well, and then change all the pinning at the ECU, but fuck that.
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Originally Posted by Itty
(Post 1472853)
That's what I figured. I'm trying to keep as much of the OEM harness stock as I can, but it obviously doesn't make sense if it requires more modification. So in this configuration, the stock crank sensor wires are not used at all, right?
cut the factory plug off and extend the +12v and ground wires to each of the NB sensors. 12v (extend 90-97 wire to both 99-05 sensors): 90-97: White/Red Cam (extend to Cam sensor only): 90-97: yellow/blue Crank (extend to Crank sensor only) 90-97: white Ground (extend to both 99-05 sensors) 90-97: black/light green from CAS plug to From cas plug to CAM and CRANK 12v+/Ground/ ONE SIGNAL and all of the other changes necessary will happen in the firmware/software of your ECU. |
Just got my dyno sheet back from my tuner. Car is a 91 w/ stock 1.8L VVT. 93 Octane, RB headers, ebay catback, Skunk2 IM, MS3X. Power number seems spot on, torque is a bit low but at least it's stable. Run 1 is the baseline map with a few adjustments by me. It's worth noting this is on a Mustang dyno.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3223eca339.png |
Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast
(Post 1474248)
torque is a bit low
Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast
(Post 1474248)
Skunk2 IM
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie
(Post 1474250)
^
Being a VVT swap, the Skunk 2 IM is a much better choice being as it relieves any clearance issues between the fuel rail and flipped regulator setup that you have to run. That being said I will gladly accept square top donations :) |
I had mine tuned by Kris at KO Racing last weekend.
2002 VVT with ~124k miles, RB header, Enthuza catback, Fujitsubo exhuast, NB1 VICS intake manifold, 3d printed intake. Tuned on MS3 pnpPro. dyno plot: https://i.imgur.com/Kv6TQa1.png Before I bought the motor one cylinder had ~30psi lower compression than the others. Haven't re-checked (and more or less don't care) so I'm real happy with the numbers. |
Originally Posted by e1_griego
(Post 1474469)
I had mine tuned by Kris at KO Racing last weekend.
2002 VVT with ~124k miles, RB header, Enthuza catback, Fujitsubo exhuast, NB1 VICS intake manifold, 3d printed intake. Tuned on MS3 pnpPro. Before I bought the motor one cylinder had ~30psi lower compression than the others. Haven't re-checked (and more or less don't care) so I'm real happy with the numbers. |
Shit, sorry.
137/127. I'll see if Kris can send me the files instead of potato quality pic. |
So I searched through this thread and didn't find anything definitive, or I might have missed it. So here's a question.
I picked up a VVT engine to put into my '94, and it came with the entire engine harness. For a race car application, if I had a plug and play ECU for the VVT harness, would swapping harnesses be the easy button? Or would it cause other issues or need adaptation at all? Again it's a race car application and won't have a stock gauge cluster so if none of that works, doesn't make a difference to me. |
It's going to be way more work to pull the stock harness and install the VVT harness than to adapt the stock harness to run the VVT.
When I did mine, I used a non-PnP MS3, and just adapted the stock VVT engine harness to the MS3 with connectors at the firewall, and connected the few wires needed for the gauges into the stock harness. |
Originally Posted by Arca_ex
(Post 1474529)
So I searched through this thread and didn't find anything definitive, or I might have missed it. So here's a question.
I picked up a VVT engine to put into my '94, and it came with the entire engine harness. For a race car application, if I had a plug and play ECU for the VVT harness, would swapping harnesses be the easy button? Or would it cause other issues or need adaptation at all? Again it's a race car application and won't have a stock gauge cluster so if none of that works, doesn't make a difference to me.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1377767)
My current customer project is a customer who I built a motor for last year. He decided to have another shop assemble his car, including the VVT swap (motor is a 02, car is a '97). The shop doing the swap attempted to swap the complete harness, including chassis harness, from their donor '02 into his '97. When they couldn't figure out how to get it running, the customer asked if I would be willing to take over the project and get it figured out.
If you got this far into this thread, and you are still considering a full harness swap, I have one word of advice for you: Don't.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1378108)
The stock ECU is plugged in, but since they only swapped half the NB fuel system in (front half), it never would have worked anyway. I'll be using an MS3 Basic for an 01-05 harness. It's not even the harness swap that makes it difficult. The NB fusebox is taller and requires a custom bracket. Still not sure how I'll mount all the relays that sit behind the NB fusebox. The headlights will never work again in this car since the motor relays left with the NA harness. No NB dash harness, so no wipers, turn signals, headlights, or HVAC. Thankfully the brake light switch connector appears to be the same. The entire fuel system is different, as I mentioned. Fan wiring is wrong, thankfully the SPM rad in this car can accept NB fans (shop lost his fans, so we'll replace). Keep in mind that this was sourced from a complete donor, so I have every relay/box that came with the '02, If you are buying a bare '02 harness and expecting to make it work in your NA, forget about it.
I wouldn't even try to estimate the number of hours of work it would take to make this work in a street car. I almost ripped the harness out and bought a new 94-95 harness to start over with (easier to get an ECU for), but the '02 harness was already in place and mostly plugged in, so it was faster to fab up custom brackets for a few things vs. re-strip the car and start over. It will still cost him a couple of thousand dollars in diagnostic and corrective work to get it running. |
Well that settles that then. Have a cat.
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Tps issue
I'd like to start by saying thanks for all the info in this thread without it I wouldn't be this far.
I have a vvt swapped into a 93 per this thread with a used mslabs ms3. it is basically complete using the nb tps and throttle. I am havin a weird issue with my tps. At initial throttle input it will show negative throttle postion. Sometimes like 30% in tunerstudio. This is approximately .25" or less of pedal travel. It also does not settle back to the same zero consistently. I thought it was the sensor so I bought a new one from autozone and the problem persists. I double checked the wiring looks correct. Any one have this issue before? Am I missing a ground or something? what should I diagnose next? any help is appreciated. if it matters lc2 wideband swapped in abs at same time car does start, but throttle signal makes it hard to drive |
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So do I not have a 99-00 fuel rail or is this not a 90-93 FPR? I’ve bent the FPR as much as I feel comfortable bending (it’s startig to crush itself) and I still cannot imagine this setup fitting... |
Originally Posted by Stock
(Post 1478292)
So do I not have a 99-00 fuel rail or is this not a 90-93 FPR? I’ve bent the FPR as much as I feel comfortable bending (it’s startig to crush itself) and I still cannot imagine this setup fitting... That being said I'm surprised how close that actually is |
Damnit. I'll dig out the NB2 rail that came with the engine to confirm they're the same. Bought this from a Miata recycler on FB, hopefully they'll make it right.
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That looks like an NB2 rail
Originally Posted by Neilv
(Post 1478296)
That being said I'm surprised how close that actually is
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Yes, it’s an NB2 rail, they’re shipping an NB1 out tomorrow. And no, it isn’t even kind of close. |
So thinking about upgrading to Toyota COP's from a local that had a 1.6L kit made. Plug in play since he bought an additional igniter.
Can anyone confirm if Toyota/Denso COP's will physically fit in the VVT motor without a bracket? Is a bracket even needed? |
Will not fit.
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Originally Posted by ysleem
(Post 1478947)
Will not fit.
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1 Attachment(s)
Am I doing this correctly? |
Nevermind picture hadn't uploaded yet I guess. I have no idea though, I just bought the DIY MS3 pnp pro |
Sorry, that wasn't meant to be cryptic. Posted at work and meant to edit got sidetracked and forgot. I'm VVT swapping my 95, did I get all I need to build a MS3 properly?
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Go to trubokitty.com
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Originally Posted by ysleem
(Post 1479177)
Go to trubokitty.com
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Has anyone wired up a NB alternator to an ms3 successfully yet?
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https://i.lensdump.com/i/8YEFL5.md.jpg
I got my swap done, fired up right away and idled well on the MS3Basic basemap. I drove the car around on Saturday to rough in a VE table and Autocrossed the car on Sunday in the pooring rain without hiccup. The only pending issue I have currently is my tach still does not work. I wired the ignitor wires blk/wht and yel/blue together. There is a 1k ohm resistor in the Diag box from when I had COPs on the car as a 1.6 between -IG and +B. Having thread thru this thread multiple times I am still a bit confused on what I need to do to get the tach working again. Here are the 3 common trends I see in this thread about getting the tach back 1) wire Black/White and Yellow/Blue together at the ignitor harness - this redirects the tach back to the cluster 2) wire the Tach output pin on the ECU options plug to the Black/White wire on the stock ECU harness 3) wire the Tach output pin on the ECU options plug directly to the Yellow/Blue wire on the cluster harness plug There was a bit of discussion around this, but no body seemed to verify what worked and what did not. |
It depends on the year of the chassis (i.e. the wiring) and which coils you are using. You have VVT coils with no tach output, so you need to use the ECU to drive your tach. There are probably OEM wires which already run from the ECU area to the cluster, so just figure out which wire to connect the tach output to, and then configure the tach output appropriately.
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So on my 1991 Federal car, it appears I would need to wire the Tach Output from the MS3 Basic to ECU pin 2I which is the yellow/blue wire for Igniter Terminal E. I am curious why this is not done internally in the MS3 and requires and external wire run to solve.
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Originally Posted by hedz0r
(Post 1486150)
So on my 1991 Federal car, it appears I would need to wire the Tach Output from the MS3 Basic to ECU pin 2I which is the yellow/blue wire for Igniter Terminal E. I am curious why this is not done internally in the MS3 and requires and external wire run to solve.
I prewire my 90-94 units this way in case someone upgrades... |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1486151)
cause, even when you wire it to 2I, you still need to physically splice together the B/W wire from 2I going to the igniter to the Yel/Blu wire coming out of the igniter that goes back to the dash tach.
I prewire my 90-94 units this way in case someone upgrades... So wiring Tach output from the MS3 to 2I on the ECU connection will bring my tach back. |
only if you then connect 2I to the tach...
2I only connects the ECU to the ignitor connector. |
So I wired pin10 on the DB37 connector, which is yel/grn to 2I on the 91 ECU harness which is yel/blu and got a no start which is odd to me. Guess I'll just run pin10 to the cluster itself
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what coils are you even running right now? why did you remove the COPs?
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stock 01 VVT coil near plug. Toyota COPs came off because they did not fit in the valve cover without significant trimming and no options for a mounting plate. I ran a wire from the ECU Tach out to the cluster and wired it to the white plug pin H which us yel/blu and I got the tach back.
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Just want to confirm NB Crank sensor wiring positions from the sensor to harness connector.
On the crank sensor connector - The red is for 12v power, blue is signal and black is the ground. The equivalent harness side connector would be matched with wh/red 12v, grey/red for signal and black blue for ground. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1158403)
All three intake manifolds have the same throttle body location. Any 1994-2005 throttle body can be used, but the 99-05 TB is more desirable for its internal idle valve routing, which makes plumbing for custom 2.5" cold air intakes or intercooler piping much simpler. Using the 99-05 throttle body will require that you change the TPS and IAC valve pigtails, but this is a fairly simple modification. The 1990-1993 throttle body cannot be used on the 99-05 manifold without an adapter, and you lose the benefits of the linear TPS on all 94-05 throttle bodies. Use a 1999-2005 throttle cable. It will bolt directly into the NA chassis and fit perfectly with the NB engine. The NA cable is too long. |
Originally Posted by Marioshi
(Post 1488307)
Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, I would like to use an NB throttle body on my 95 with the stock engine. Do I need to use the NB throttle cable as well or does this only apply if I swap to an NB motor?
Use the NA throttle cable on the NB throttle body mounted to a NA intake manifold. |
Originally Posted by hedz0r
(Post 1488451)
Since you would be putting a NB throttle body on an NA intake manifold, you would use the NA throttle cable. This mainly has to do with where the throttle cable bracket resides on the intake manifold. On NB manifolds, the bracket is much closer to the throttle body than on NA manifolds making the NA much too long on an NB manifold.
Use the NA throttle cable on the NB throttle body mounted to a NA intake manifold. |
Originally Posted by hedz0r
(Post 1488451)
Since you would be putting a NB throttle body on an NA intake manifold, you would use the NA throttle cable. This mainly has to do with where the throttle cable bracket resides on the intake manifold. On NB manifolds, the bracket is much closer to the throttle body than on NA manifolds making the NA much too long on an NB manifold.
Use the NA throttle cable on the NB throttle body mounted to a NA intake manifold. From the wiring diagram it looks like: Top: 5V Middle: Singal Bottom: Ground I just want to be sure I am not reading this upside down... |
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try this
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https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f477f01b5e.png
got my friend to send a pic of his 99. Top: green/black (signal) Middle: black/red (ground) Bottom: light green/red (5v) |
I have a 1994 Miata race car that needs a new motor. Do not care about emissions or car classing. I have a friend selling a 05 VVT Engine and a Square Top Intake Manifold. Before I jump in and buy the motor I want some validation/feedback that my plan is feasible.
Current engine · 01 Block / 2000 head with exhaust cam swap · Toyota COPS firing off of the CAS at the back of the exhaust cam · MS PNP using IAT and engine vacumn · M-Tuned Fuel rail with recently cleaned stock injectors and an external FPR on the firewall at 60 lbs VVT plan · Use the existing 94 wiring where possible · Ignition - put the CAS in and the run COPS (trimmed to fit)(have the stock 05 coils if needed) · Fuel – use the M-Tuned fuel rail and external FPR – square top manifold – stock injectors · Throttle Body – have the stock 94 – also have a Skunkworks2 that plugs into stock harness – also have the stock 05 – don’t know which way to go yet · Run the VVT off of the VVTuner using inputs from the front Cam Angle Sensor and the Crank Angle Sensor Questions – do I need to link the VVTuner to the MSPNP? Do I need to wire the Idle Air Control to the VVTuner? Anything I am missing? |
NB throttle cable
So I literally ripped out my NA throttle cable and went to install the NB cable I sourced and have an issue.
The end of the cable that attaches to the thottle cable doesn't seem to fit correctly. The metal ball at the end is smaller in diameter compared to the larger metal disk at the end of the NA cable. The smaller ball doesn't seem to catch correctly in the pedal assembly. What am I missing? Thanks! |
NA and NB cables are identical except for the length.
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IIRC, there's a green plastic clip that is supposed to sit in between the ball on the cable end and the pedal assy.
***Edit*** if memory serves, that green clip is what actually attached the cable to the pedal. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...910eebef5e.jpg |
Please see pictures. Ends are different and metal ball is too small. My car is a 94. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...59ab6c62ac.jpg
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Yeah. The green plastic thing clips into the pedal. The metal ball pulls against the green plastic thing, not directly against the gas pedal.
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Cool guess I just misunderstood how it worked.
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Originally Posted by bhoss
(Post 1497628)
I have a 1994 Miata race car that needs a new motor. Do not care about emissions or car classing. I have a friend selling a 05 VVT Engine and a Square Top Intake Manifold. Before I jump in and buy the motor I want some validation/feedback that my plan is feasible.
Current engine · 01 Block / 2000 head with exhaust cam swap · Toyota COPS firing off of the CAS at the back of the exhaust cam · MS PNP using IAT and engine vacumn · M-Tuned Fuel rail with recently cleaned stock injectors and an external FPR on the firewall at 60 lbs VVT plan · Use the existing 94 wiring where possible · Ignition - put the CAS in and the run COPS (trimmed to fit)(have the stock 05 coils if needed) · Fuel – use the M-Tuned fuel rail and external FPR – square top manifold – stock injectors · Throttle Body – have the stock 94 – also have a Skunkworks2 that plugs into stock harness – also have the stock 05 – don’t know which way to go yet · Run the VVT off of the VVTuner using inputs from the front Cam Angle Sensor and the Crank Angle Sensor Questions – do I need to link the VVTuner to the MSPNP? Do I need to wire the Idle Air Control to the VVTuner? Anything I am missing? As always, I'd highly recommend taking this opportunity to upgrade to a MS3 Basic, available from Trackspeed Engineering. It's always going to run better when you not only upgrade the ECU, but also integrate the VVT control into the main ECU. This would also allow you to run higher resolution in your trigger wheel, and eliminate the CAS and it's wiring. As for throttle bodies, you have to switch IAC and TPS pigtails, but I would use the NB unit, since it integrates the IAC inlet, eliminating the plumbing it requires. Much smaller IAC as well for an altogether cleaner look. |
Fuel line
You will need to retain one of the fuel injection fittings from the 01-05 fuel rail to use as an adapter on the 99-00 fuel rail. Also on Amazon I see Dorman 800-081 Fuel Line Quick Connector for 5/16 In. Steel to 5/16 In. Nylon Tubing, Pack of 2. Any chance this would work. I don't actually have a 01 line so this would be preferred for sure. |
Just cut off the plastic line and clamp on the rubber line. |
Perhaps not relevant for most on here, but does anyone know the compatibility of the VVT and NA power steering pumps?
I'm an EPAS Engineer at an OEM and have noticed my NA saturates the pump very easily (it can even happen during oversteer correction!). I'm not sure whether the rapid weight transfer of my Supermiata big grip kit is causing this or whether the pump is now tired. My NBFL does not saturate the pump, however hard I try, though it does have softer suspension. Basically I'm trying to work out whether the NA pump just can't cope with what I'm asking for (and so I need an NB pump?) or whether my NA pump is now tired. |
Originally Posted by Tran
(Post 1502761)
Perhaps not relevant for most on here, but does anyone know the compatibility of the VVT and NA power steering pumps?
I'm an EPAS Engineer at an OEM and have noticed my NA saturates the pump very easily (it can even happen during oversteer correction!). I'm not sure whether the rapid weight transfer of my Supermiata big grip kit is causing this or whether the pump is now tired. My NBFL does not saturate the pump, however hard I try, though it does have softer suspension. Basically I'm trying to work out whether the NA pump just can't cope with what I'm asking for (and so I need an NB pump?) or whether my NA pump is now tired. |
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1502765)
Should probably be is own thread but I don't know that I've noticed difference in similarly prepped cars (all with NB racks) between the pumps. I do also know that even running the higher pressure volvo v70 electric pump it's still possible to saturate the PS but much more difficult.
If it is such that my NA pump is tired and I just need to replace it fine. But if the NB pump is of a larger capacity and fits, then that would be the one to run if you have saturation issues with the NB pump, but you'd still want to run the NA pump if you don't, since a lower capacity pump should have lower losses and so eat up less power and generate less heat. The volvo V70 pump sounds a good idea though.... If it frees up power, lets me delete a belt and doesn't saturate as easily, then it's a win win. Are there any documented installs of it? Search is returning nothing for me. |
V70 pump detailed somewhere in my build thread.
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Hi, It's common enough to have steering 'bind' when rotating the steering quickly, say for example, driving through a chicane quickly. A simple mod can be done to allow increased flow through the pump to resolve this issue. Below the high pressure line on the top of the PS pump is a valve body (not the valve itself as you don't want to increase the pressure). You remove this and open the orifice slightly, using a slightly larger drill bit. This will increase the flow of oil and stop this 'bind'. It will make the steering slightly lighter, but not by much if you don't open the hole too much. I've had this mod done to all my competition MX5's over the years and it works perfectly. Here a pic of the valves from the NA & NB.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0416c60560.jpg |
I've been searching for a while now and can't find my answer. I've swapped a few VVT engines, but usually with a full VVT block. I'm currently swapping a VVT head onto my '99 block, how do people bolt the VVT oil hardline on to the side of the block? The banjo is straight thread, the block is 1/8 bspt. On another swap, I've put in a bspt to AN adapter and ran a oil line to the actuator on the valve cover, but I'm trying to keep the stock hard line with my engine.
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Whoa. I ran an OE lower VVT banjo on a '94 block for about 18 months, and I'm running it now on a '97 block. I didn't notice any issue at all on either setup. It's sealed with a copper crush washer just like the upper banjo.
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