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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1387682)
Keeping returnless would require a different fuel pump hanger.
Just finished reading the whole thread because thinking about a VVT swap into my 94. |
If you want to spend a bunch of time and money to convert your '94 to the inferior returnless system, be my guest :party:
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I'm making progress modifying my '94 oil pump to support a crank sensor. I drilled & tapped the cast boss for M6x1. It looks like the oil pump has a little vestigial lip inboard of the sensor mounting point. In the later crank sensor equipped NA's, it looks like this lip became a more pronounced reference point to locate the NA style sensors. Of course, I have a NB style sensor. From what I can tell, the NB pump and sensor configuration allow the sensor to basically pivot freely about the mounting bolt.
I'm going to have to trim that lip off to allow the sensor to seat flush. For those who have dealt with this sensor before, would I be better off giving the sensor enough clearance to pivot freely, or just enough clearance to sit flush but not be able to pivot really at all? https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2cbd0de48f.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5940f24131.jpg |
I would bolt up an OEM damper briefly before cutting anything. You may find that you need to space the sensor out to center it on the trigger wheel, vs. trimming the oil pump.
e: A bit of searching says that's probably wrong. You will need to trim the oil pump to locate the sensor properly. The location of that boss is also different, apparently, so you'll need to compensate for that in your trigger angle setting. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1398078)
I would bolt up an OEM damper briefly before cutting anything. You may find that you need to space the sensor out to center it on the trigger wheel, vs. trimming the oil pump.
e: A bit of searching says that's probably wrong. You will need to trim the oil pump to locate the sensor properly. The location of that boss is also different, apparently, so you'll need to compensate for that in your trigger angle setting. here's the before shot. You can see that the protruding element is radiused. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b5e83dcb70.jpg here's the after shot. I had to file it down to 2mm and stick a 2mm washer behind the sensor. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b82be3ebe7.jpg here you can see where the trigger wheel teeth pass the sensor head. I basically just put the crank sprocket & pulley on the crank without the key so i could spin it against the sensor. That buffed shiny stripe is where the tooth rubbed against the sensor. FYI, the sensor head diameter is just about exactly 16mm if you are trying to center it. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0f93b2cc69.jpg The trigger angle correction sounds intimidating. I guess I'd better start researching that... |
Same as what NA CAS users have to do, so not a big deal. NBs generally all use the same angle, but yours might not. Just something to check.
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AKA "trigger wizard" + check timing with a light?
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Originally Posted by wackbards
(Post 1398111)
AKA "trigger wizard" + check timing with a light?
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Awesome. That's pretty simple. I'll update whether this sensor location requires any correction in TS once I get there.
*UPDATE* I had to advance my timing with trigger wizard 5.5* to get the trigger wheel signal properly sinc'd |
https://www.miataturbo.net/build-threads-57/ryephiles-loosely-guided-build-80222/page3/#post1189805
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1398130)
https://www.miataturbo.net/build-threads-57/ryephiles-loosely-guided-build-80222/page3/#post1189805
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I would have gone your way too. I just ran across that today searching for how the crank sensor wires run. Saw your posts, figured that belonged in this thread.
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So.. sanity check here. For those with early (real) oil pressure gauges who have done this swap. Does your oil pressure flutter as VVT engages?
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Originally Posted by albumleaf
(Post 1398666)
So.. sanity check here. For those with early (real) oil pressure gauges who have done this swap. Does your oil pressure flutter as VVT engages?
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Originally Posted by mmmjesse
(Post 1398703)
yes, mine seems to. are you using a vvt oil pump?
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What is your oil pressure at idle when full operating temp? I am assuming you have the full boundary pump with shimmed pressure regulator?
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Originally Posted by mmmjesse
(Post 1398706)
What is your oil pressure at idle when full operating temp? I am assuming you have the full boundary pump with shimmed pressure regulator?
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Originally Posted by albumleaf
(Post 1398666)
So.. sanity check here. For those with early (real) oil pressure gauges who have done this swap. Does your oil pressure flutter as VVT engages?
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91 non return style conversion
Dear Awesome miata gods,
I've read in the 1.8 swap guide from flying miata that if you go standalone you do not need to swap the fuelrails. and thus you have to convert to a non return style fuel system. What will be the best solution since I have the pnp pro for the 90-93 chassis and that the fuel rail is extremely hard to find where I live. Very Kind regards, Cedric |
Your problem is easier to solve than you would think. Just add a fuel pressure regulator inline, with the return pipe connected to the return line and the outlet pipe connected to the returnless fuel rail. That way you're basically putting the fuel return where the original one is instead of next to the fuel tank. That's basically what the returnless system is: It has a constant pressure FPR next to the tank and a short return line.
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Originally Posted by ThunderFox
(Post 1403312)
Your problem is easier to solve than you would think. Just add a fuel pressure regulator inline, with the return pipe connected to the return line and the outlet pipe connected to the returnless fuel rail. That way you're basically putting the fuel return where the original one is instead of next to the fuel tank. That's basically what the returnless system is: It has a constant pressure FPR next to the tank and a short return line.
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To do so will require an adapter where you mount it. In fact there should be a "tee" sort of fitting with an inline "damper" that resembles an FPR in an NB. You may be able to use/modify that.
But to be fair, just getting an aftermarket one will work fine. Standard pressure should be near 3.0 BAR if you will use pressure reference, otherwise 3.5 BAR is good. This works, from experience with other cars with returnless systems, not the MX5 in particular. |
Originally Posted by ThunderFox
(Post 1403333)
To do so will require an adapter where you mount it. In fact there should be a "tee" sort of fitting with an inline "damper" that resembles an FPR in an NB. You may be able to use/modify that.
But to be fair, just getting an aftermarket one will work fine. Standard pressure should be near 3.0 BAR if you will use pressure reference, otherwise 3.5 BAR is good. This works, from experience with other cars with returnless systems, not the MX5 in particular. Posted just now lucky me :D Thank you for the amazing help though. |
On my car, I tapped the fuel rail where the regulator bolts to it, then used an A/N line to an aftermarket adjustable regulator.
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Wich part of the wiring do I use?
I'm currently in the swap process for a vvt engine, both engines are out (91 1.6, 03 1.8 vvt). I am going through the thread and following what needs to be done on the wiring side. I will be rewiring the alternator so the ecu(pnppro) can regulate the voltage (I'm using the 03 alternator). On this I need to do some more research on how to do that. For the rest of electrical stuff: What do I need to swap? the pigtails of the sensors or the engine harness in general that has the injectors and coolent temp sensors in it ? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8324e1ba91.jpgthe engine loom from the vvt motor
Very kind regards, Cedric |
Man, if only someone had put all that information in a thread somewhere.
(I'll be a little helpful and tell you just to ditch the 03 alternator and go with a NA8 instead. Why bother?) |
Originally Posted by albumleaf
(Post 1403398)
Man, if only someone had put all that information in a thread somewhere.
(I'll be a little helpful and tell you just to ditch the 03 alternator and go with a NA8 instead. Why bother?) So which plug do I use then ? Thank you for the advice on the alternator though. |
Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403411)
Ofcourse I've read the entire thread. It said that you can keep the OEM pigtails of the guage sender and and CLT sensor, but the plug where these 2 meet, the 6 pin plug on the intake obviousely differs from the 8 pin connector on the NB harnass.
So which plug do I use then ? Thank you for the advice on the alternator though. Read this thread a couple more times. |
Originally Posted by wackbards
(Post 1403424)
I think you're describing the injector harness? IIRC, it has the CLT sensors in it. The 1.6 was batch injection, whereas the 1.8 is sequential. 2 extra wires...
Read this thread a couple more times. |
So many bad posts in my good thread.
Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403310)
I've read in the 1.8 swap guide from flying miata that if you go standalone you do not need to swap the fuelrails. and thus you have to convert to a non return style fuel system. What will be the best solution since I have the pnp pro for the 90-93 chassis and that the fuel rail is extremely hard to find where I live.
Originally Posted by ThunderFox
(Post 1403312)
Your problem is easier to solve than you would think. Just add a fuel pressure regulator inline, with the return pipe connected to the return line and the outlet pipe connected to the returnless fuel rail. That way you're basically putting the fuel return where the original one is instead of next to the fuel tank. That's basically what the returnless system is: It has a constant pressure FPR next to the tank and a short return line.
Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403331)
Do I use the 90-93 FPR for this? isfo where do I mount it?
Originally Posted by ThunderFox
(Post 1403333)
To do so will require an adapter where you mount it. In fact there should be a "tee" sort of fitting with an inline "damper" that resembles an FPR in an NB. You may be able to use/modify that.
But to be fair, just getting an aftermarket one will work fine. Standard pressure should be near 3.0 BAR if you will use pressure reference, otherwise 3.5 BAR is good. This works, from experience with other cars with returnless systems, not the MX5 in particular.
Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403334)
I think I will be trying to find a rail and use the 90-93 regulator. Finaly found one pretty close to me.
Posted just now lucky me :D Thank you for the amazing help though.
Originally Posted by MX5RACER
(Post 1403338)
On my car, I tapped the fuel rail where the regulator bolts to it, then used an A/N line to an aftermarket adjustable regulator.
Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403393)
I will be rewiring the alternator so the ecu(pnppro) can regulate the voltage (I'm using the 03 alternator).
For the rest of electrical stuff: What do I need to swap? the pigtails of the sensors or the engine harness in general that has the injectors and coolent temp sensors in it ?
Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403411)
Ofcourse I've read the entire thread. It said that you can keep the OEM pigtails of the guage sender and and CLT sensor, but the plug where these 2 meet, the 6 pin plug on the intake obviousely differs from the 8 pin connector on the NB harnass.
So which plug do I use then ?. :party: |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1403453)
So many bad posts in my good thread.
You cannot use your 1.6L or early 1.8L fuel rail on the later 1.8L engine. I doubt the FM guide actually says this, because FM is a good shop and would not give such bad advice. If they did actually tell you to use your 90-97 fuel rail on a 99-05 motor, they are wrong and you should not do that. Suggesting that the OP convert his return-style car to returnless is a terrible idea. He would have to purchase an expensive aftermarket regulator as well as all of the fittings to connect this regulator. He would also end up with an inferior setup because he wouldn't have 2/3rds of the OEM NB fuel pulse dampers which make that system work. Please don't suggest this anymore. The OP should do what I recommend, which is buy a 99-00 fuel rail and use his existing regulator turned upside-down. In fact, the OP is probably in Europe based on his diction, so if he buys a used 99-00 rail from a breaker, it might even come with the proper NB1 return-style FPR, which is an even better idea which is also covered in the original post. Yes, use your 90-93 FPR, mount it upside down, just like the first post in this thread says to. Please ignore ThunderFox. No, no, no, please stop. Good. You can tap, but I would be a little sketched out by the thickness of the rail. There are very inexpensive FPR adapters available which will bolt into place and give you a 1/8" NPT port to work with. Don't do this. You are just making your life needlessly harder. Read the thread again. You don't need to swap anything. You use your original injector wiring. If you want sequential fuel, you will modify your original wiring. The NB wiring you posted a photo of belongs in the trash can. Neither. You throw that away and use your original wiring. If you want sequential fuel, you will modify your original wiring. Trying to splice in the NB injector harness will go very badly for you. :party: Holy **** you're amazing. I got all the solutions now :) on with the build ;) I completely understand why everyone suggests you when it comes to miatas, especialy this topic. GOD!!! |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1403453)
So many bad posts in my good thread.
You can tap, but I would be a little sketched out by the thickness of the rail. There are very inexpensive FPR adapters available which will bolt into place and give you a 1/8" NPT port to work with. |
Interesting, which adapter plate? The OEM FPR connects the same way (flange with an o-ring) so if it's correctly dimensioned it should be just as reliable as the OEM FPR.
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I would replace the o ring that came with the turbosmart or ebay adapters with a higher spec version -- especially for an eBay one.
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The plate that I used had a cut out for the O-Ring to sit into, the factory FPR had an extension that the O-ring was inserted into the fuel rail on.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e9af81d03c.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c20f1ae41d.jpg The first failure I had was the O-ring, the second was caused when one of the bolts backed out a bit. At the time the this was the only plate I could find locally. |
Yeah thats the wrong adapter.
You need something like this http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/TS-0402-1014.jpg |
Well that explains a lot :)
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Originally Posted by c.v.r
(Post 1403393)
I will be rewiring the alternator so the ecu(pnppro) can regulate the voltage (I'm using the 03 alternator).
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1403453)
Don't do this. You are just making your life needlessly harder.
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Ben, can you clearly outline the wiring changes necessary for the thread? I'll add it to the OP if you can.
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 1403521)
Disagree. I love the ability to regulate voltage for many reasons including (1) potential for hotter spark when dwell limited (2) ability to increase or decrease voltage with load, as appropriate for application (3) ability to use over run conditions to charge battery
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1403522)
Ben, can you clearly outline the wiring changes necessary for the thread? I'll add it to the OP if you can.
-David |
I'd rather see the definitive "swap ecu controlled alternator to reliable NA setup" thread.
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I've fried two cam sensors in 3 days. I wired it such that the cam and crank sensors share the +12v & gnd that used to power the cas. I wired the cam sensor pigtail as pictured below. Is this all correct?
Full disclosure, both of the cam sensors were used. "Stop being a cheap bastard & buy a new sensor" is a perfectly acceptable answer. I just want to get confirmation that my wiring is legit. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e66a0e168b.png |
Originally Posted by wackbards
(Post 1412926)
I've fried two cam sensors in 3 days. I wired it such that the cam and crank sensors share the +12v & gnd that used to power the cas. I wired the cam sensor pigtail as pictured below. Is this all correct?
Full disclosure, both of the cam sensors were used. "Stop being a cheap bastard & buy a new sensor" is a perfectly acceptable answer. I just want to get confirmation that my wiring is legit. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e66a0e168b.png What do you mean "fried" |
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1412938)
That looks correct
What do you mean "fried" By fried, I mean stops working. Both created signal in composite logger and ran the car fine for about a day, then car won't cold start. No signal in composite logger. I swapped out the first dead one, and car fired right up. Now the second one isn't sending signal. If the wiring looks right, I'll pick up a couple new sensors. Could be I just had bad luck with used sensors. |
Thats odd. Are they fried forever? Like if you use the first one again is it still dead.
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Haven't tried. I'd be tempted to test that if it was a hot start issue, but cold start? Seems unlikely. I can plug it back in & see what happens. What's your theory?
Don't want to cause too much thread drift here. I'll buy some sensors. Thanks for validating my wiring. |
I think Sav has said that he's had the experience of buying a new cam sensor and it being DOA out of the box. Keep a spare or two around (and test them, of course).
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No theory. Just want a complete picture. Too many times have I assumed something was broken, or not broken, only to test it again and find out I was wrong.
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I had the same CAS on Rover for a couple of years, and it finally started acting up in hot weather in March, then died completely a week later in cooler weather. I swapped in another one, which lasted a week until it, too, died in hot weather. The third replacement has been solid. The OEM CAS design is garbage, I would always carry a spare in the glovebox and 2-3 spares if you track the car.
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I havent had one fail completely. But the only ones I've had luck with are the old OEM ones that dont have the diamondstar mark on it.
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VVT swap in a 1995.5 Miata, which MS3 Basic is correct??
2 Attachment(s)
Hello everyone... I have been working on this swap since last September and finally got some time and motivation to try and figure out why I can not get this VVT swap to run.
I am confident I have double/triple checked my wiring based on the "Definitive" write up... I had spark, fuel, and compression last I checked but I can not get the car "RPM SYNCED" with the MS3 basic... The current setup is 01 VVT long block, Squaretop intake manifold, Skunk2 throttle body, Jackson racing header, racing beat full exhaust and aftermarket cat. I am using the 94-95 MS3 Basic for my ECU. Transmission is an 04 MSM 6-speed, Toda 1.6 flywheel and 1.6 ACT clutch... currently have the Torsen I 4.1 diff... In my search for any possible reason why I can not get this motor running I came across a question in reference to the 95.5 Miata and the MS3 Basic. My manufacture date on my Miata shows 03/95. My factory ECU is a "BPL9B" which I searched today and it came up as a 95.5 manual ecu... I purchased my MS3 basic as a 94-95 and I am wondering if I should have purchased the 96-97?? I am no expert by any means and this project has been a learn as I go project but I am so bummed I have everything installed and the car still doesn't run... I had a spare 94 harness from a 94 manual... The ECU is a "BPE8" and I noticed the ecu harness is missing one blk/wht wire compared to my 95.5 ecu harness... Attachment 179996Attachment 179997 In short... is it possible my Not RPM Synced could have anything to do with this blk/wht tach wire?? Or does the 95.5 Miata require the 96-97 MS3 Basic... Any suggestions or direction would be a big help. |
VVT Swap 1995.5 Cont..
2 Attachment(s)
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That blk/wt wire is simply the ECU's tach signal. Provided by the coils in the earlier NA8s, so it doesn't go to the ECU.
Check for spark and fuel for both coils and all four injectors in test mode, report back. composite log too please. |
Thanks for the quick reply. Just confirming I do this in the "Output Test Mode Inj/Spk" ?
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Yes. You'll have to fiddle with the settings but you'll hear a clicking sound, unplug coils and injectors to make sure each one is working if necessary. You can also test your tach, VVT, IAC, and fan in the output test screen.
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VVT swap MS3 Basic Output Test Mode Inj/Spk
2 Attachment(s)
I went through the Output Test Mode Inj/Spk test...
I can hear my fuel pump priming when I turn the pump on. I can hear a faint clicking with the coils (A-B) This was a bit more settle than the injector test. I can hear the clicking of each injector (Injector A-D). (My injectors (01+ purple injectors) were tested and gone through before this swap.) I am not sure how to provide you the best composite log so I took a picture by phone. Looks like a sync error... I did replace the cam and crank sensors with new sensors and have checked the tooth gap with a "credit card".. Again I am figuring this out as I go so if I am doing something completely wrong I am all ears to get on the right track! Attachment 180029Attachment 180030 |
No sync error there. The ones at the beginning are normal as it starts up. So it looks like its syncing. Are you getting spark?
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What settings are you using for the ignition pick-up, '99+ Miata, rising edge, falling edge etc.?
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Post tune and log
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No more cam and crank signal
I use an mspnp pro for my vvt swap in my 91. After getting the car running I noticed that there was no tach. So after reading what might solve this. I installed the tach out jumper. But now the car won't start anymore and there is no crank and cam signal in the composite logger. All fuses are fine and F1 and F2 are still getting the required voltages. Also both sensors recieve 12 volts on the pigtails.
Any advice on how to get these signals back ? Thanks in advance, Cedric |
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