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Old 02-24-2011, 07:42 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne_curr View Post
So have you not had this problem with CHRA bolts at all then?
I did once but it hasn't been a re-occuring issue. like the turbo flange.

Bob
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Old 02-24-2011, 07:47 PM   #182
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Has anyone tried something like an ARP2000 bolt or something even higher.. they have a pretty damn high tensile strength.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:01 PM   #183
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Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by jasonc sbb View Post
juuust to be clear, for posterity's sake, and for anyone who stumbles on this thread, and can't read through 9 pages.

for the love of god. Hustler. Please. Post photos of your setup with arrows pointing to the loosening bolts.

this should have been the first post.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:12 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon View Post
Has anyone tried something like an ARP2000 bolt or something even higher.. they have a pretty damn high tensile strength.
Not at 1700 degrees they don't
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:19 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
Dude, there is one safety wired bolt in a photo at the beginning of the thread. If you really need a red arrow pointing at it, I'm speechless.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:20 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon View Post
Has anyone tried something like an ARP2000 bolt or something even higher.. they have a pretty damn high tensile strength.
You haven't grasped the cause of this issue yet. Try again.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:42 PM   #187
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:02 PM   #188
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That's supposed to read "MANI" as in MANIFOLD, and not "MAN". JPG over-compression...
Attached Thumbnails
CHRA/turbine bolts relaxing.-hustlers-bitch.jpg  

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-24-2011 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:17 PM   #189
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So guys which bolts are we talking about again?
lmao
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:17 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Dude, there is one safety wired bolt in a photo at the beginning of the thread. If you really need a red arrow pointing at it, I'm speechless.
I have been making documentation, engineering notes and application notes for customers and for training engineers in-house for more than a decade. You don't expect your customer/audience to spend minutes figuring something out that a single arrow would clarify in seconds. YOU PUT THE ARROW IN THE DOCUMENTATION.

No I could not find the safety wire until you mentioned it. The original title did not say "CHRA". I looked at the pic and saw two humongous bolts with no safety wire. The Safety wire is BLURRY. The photo is over-jpeg-compressed. The two humongous bolts have no safety wire. So I ASKED. And did not get an answer.

Additionally, someone not familiar with the layout of his manifold and turbo would be thoroughly confused by his closeup.

For example, I did NOT know that Tial made turbine housings. When he said Tial, I thought, "wastegate". And, later, I thought "Vband housing" = "the ******* housing is attached to the CHRA by a VBAND. What's all this trouble regarding a ******* Vband bolt??"

I was not following Hustler's troubles carefully. I did not start reading this thread until it was several pages long. I do not want to read every post to try and understand what's going on. I wanted to understand WHICH GODDAM BOLT(S) are loosening. It was NOT CLEAR in his first post.

Let me repeat. When you show photos, you PUT ARROWS if it will prevent several minutes of confusion.

I'm not saying everyone here should do this, or there should be some mt.net rule about arrows. But it's NOT UNREASONABLE to ASK "WHICH ******* BOLT" and at least get an answer like "in the first photo there is an obscure bolt with safety wire that is BLURRY", like you answered, with sarcasm.

Hustler may have lost some opportunity for some readers to offer something helpful if he had put a ******* ARROW or had answered a not unreasonable question (another poster had expressed confusion, not just me).

</rant>

Sorry, I'm pissed because of work, and I'm pissed at the wife too.

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-25-2011 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:18 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Good try but I expect these are your options:
PT doesn't have anyone driving hard enough to kill hardware
PT doesn't think you will drive hard enough to kill hardware
PT turbo won't tell you if they do
PT won't give you consideration.

I'll test the Inco bolts for you. Then you can get the EDM "drilled" and life successfully through my misfortunes.
I worked directly with PT's owner on a drag engine. Asked him twice for pricing because I wanted to sell his product. Nuttin. You'd think selling their products would be simplier. Tial is only marginally better too.

Got through about 4 inconel bolts tonight after work on one $3.50 drill. Niiiice.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:23 PM   #192
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Some random thoughts.

Maybe Hustler is overtorquing those small M6 bolts and thus pre-stretching them too much, making them more susceptible to creep due to high temperature.

Maybe the combination of CTE's of the materials is such that during thermal transients, they bolts ar expected to lengthen to a point that they creep or yield. In which case, extra spacers under the bolt heads will help.

Vibration - if his manifold positions the turbo farther away from the motor than cast manifolds, then the moment arm is longer, and it will probably vibrate more. Is it farther?

Additionally, vibration would perhaps make the bolts back out - but the safety wire prevent this - so maybe it's not vibration.

But again if indeed vibration is the issue, maybe the additional stress is making the bolts stretch by loading them past the elastic limit - again a higher temp rated bolt may help (but then he used some other high temp bolts), or maybe again, spacers will help, because any stretching due to vibration, occurs over a longer length of bolt.

If vibration were the issue, anyone who can rev the engine through the resonance frequency can break them. You don't need to be a he-man driver like hustler to do it, because hustler's he-mannisms produces high temperatures, not RPMs. IOW if the resonant frequency is say, 6000 RPM, then any pussyfoot who can make the motor sit at 6000 RPM for prolonged periods can shake them loose. High temperatures not necessary.

THEREFORE the problem is either HEAT, or the combo of HEAT AND VIBRATION.
Ergo the solution may involve something like a bolt that handles vibration better at high temperatures.

Which reminds me. Hustler rev the engine in neutral at slowly increasing RPMS. If there is a strong resonance it should show up.

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-24-2011 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:26 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
I have been making documentation for customers for more than a decade. You don't expect your customer to spend minutes figuring something out that a single arrow would clarify in seconds. YOU PUT THE ARROW IN THE DOCUMENTATION.

No I could not find the safety wire until you mentioned it. The original title did not say "CHRA". I looked at the pic and saw two humongous bolts with no safety wire. The Safety wire is BLURRY. The photo is over-jpeg-compressed. The two humongous bolts have no safety wire. So I ASKED. And did not get an answer.

Additionally, someone not familiar with the layout of his manifold and turbo would be thoroughly confused by his closeup.

For example, I did NOT know that Tial made turbine housings. When he said Tial, I thought, "wastegate". And, later, I thought "Vband housing" = "the ******* housing is attached to the CHRA by a VBAND. What's all this trouble regarding a ******* Vband bolt??"

I was not following Hustler's troubles carefully. I did not start reading this thread until it was several pages long. I do not want to read every post to try and understand what's going on. I wanted to understand WHICH GODDAM BOLT(S) are loosening. It was NOT CLEAR in his first post.

Let me repeat. When you show photos, you PUT ARROWS if it will prevent several minutes of confusion.

I'm not saying everyone here should do this, or there should be some mt.net rule about arrows. But it's NOT UNREASONABLE to ASK "WHICH ******* BOLT" and at least get an answer like "in the first photo there is an obscure bolt with safety wire that is BLURRY", like you answered, with sarcasm.

Hustler may have lost some opportunity for some readers to offer something helpful if he had put a ******* ARROW or had answered a not unreasonable question (another poster had expressed confusion, not just me).

</rant>

Sorry, I'm pissed because of work, and I'm pissed at the wife too.
Sounds logical to me and a great idea. Seriously.

Please take pictures and make simple diagrams with arrows pointing to things you describe but I don't know exist within your fancy threads about electrical gizmos so I can follow your threads without reading every post.

haha
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:36 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Some random thoughts.

Maybe Hustler is overtorquing those small M6 bolts and thus pre-stretching them too much, making them more susceptible to creep due to high temperature.
Completely possible.

Quote:
Maybe the combination of CTE's of the materials is such that during thermal transients, they bolts ar expected to lengthen to a point that they creep or yield. In which case, extra spacers under the bolt heads will help.
ehhh i'm drinking too much to post about this part or think if I'm correct but longer bolts would tend to be better generally like you mention below.

Quote:
Vibration - if his manifold positions the turbo farther away from the motor than cast manifolds, then the moment arm is longer, and it will probably vibrate more. Is it farther?
yes his CHRA is further from the engine than a BEGI or FM manifold.

Quote:
Additionally, vibration would perhaps make the bolts back out - but the safety wire prevent this.

If vibration is the issue, maybe the additional stress is making the bolts stretch by loading them past the elastic limit - again a higher temp rated bolt may help (but then he used some other high temp bolts), or maybe again, spacers will help, because any stretching due to vibration, occurs over a longer length of bolt.
Yes, and his higher temp bolts he tried were not safety wired and vibrated out quickly.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:36 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Please take pictures and make simple diagrams with arrows pointing to things you describe but I don't know exist within your fancy threads about electrical gizmos so I can follow your threads without reading every post.

haha
The difference is, my electrical gizmo posts are me sharing my information, while hustler is asking for help. I'm trying to help hustler and all I was asking was "which ******* bolt".
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:38 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Completely possible.

ehhh i'm drinking too much to post about this part or think if I'm correct but longer bolts would tend to be better generally like you mention below.


yes his CHRA is further from the engine than a BEGI or FM manifold.

Yes, and his higher temp bolts he tried were not safety wired and vibrated out quickly.
Sorry about the ninja edits, read the last 4 paragraphs I wrote above.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:40 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Yes, and his higher temp bolts he tried were not safety wired and vibrated out quickly.
Intersting point! Perhaps the safety wire prevents backing out due to vibration, and the low temp bolts with safety wire cannot take the heat.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:41 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
If vibration were the issue, anyone who can rev the engine through the resonance frequency can break them. You don't need to be a he-man driver like hustler to do it, because hustler's he-mannisms produces high temperatures, not RPMs. IOW if the resonant frequency is say, 6000 RPM, then any pussyfoot who can make the motor sit at 6000 RPM for prolonged periods can shake them loose. High temperatures not necessary.

THEREFORE the problem is either HEAT, or the combo of HEAT AND VIBRATION.
Ergo the solution may involve something like a bolt that handles vibration better at high temperatures.

Which reminds me. Hustler rev the engine in neutral at slowly increasing RPMS. If there is a strong resonance it should show up.
Sounds a lot like post #164 and what I think is the proper solution.

And don't all of our cars have a wicked harmonic about 5500rpm? obvious when you rev the car in neutral? I hope so or else I'm doing something very wrong.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:45 PM   #199
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5500 RPM may be the harmonic of the intake manifold. The exhaust mani/turbo combo may have a different frequency/RPM.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:46 PM   #200
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Maybe the solution is safety-wiring the non-inconel fancy hi temp bolts (Nimonic), which may be easier to drill than inconel.

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-24-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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