You're right, I have to get on his level. None of my shit matches, at all, but it works.

I needed a mag pouch for my FSN mags so I bought this for $4 at the Army Navy store:

Attachment 187170

Apparently it's some sort of MOLLE thing for 40mm grenades but I don't own any sort of harness or vest so it'll be on my belt -- where it should be.

I guess I got a good price, LOL!!

https://www.entrygear.com/product.asp?id=40MM-2-MS

Ive got all my favorite guns, but I want to get something to carry.
Pistol. Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag
Shotgun. Browning Citori 12 gauge
Rifle. Ruger 7 mag 12X Leupold scope
My all time favorite. Winchester 1942 .22

Ive got a few others i used to shoot but havent in a long time.

Im thinking about get a .40 kahr (cheap and light plus it shoots relatively well)to carry but I prefer to shoot revolvers so Im still on the fence.

Nice. I'm that asshole who just carries a spare magazine in my pocket to scratch up the cell phone..

You actually just carry a spare magazine aound when you are carrying? You ever think youll need to bullets, maybe if you shoot to mame

I used to do that. The most I used for mag holders has always been an old Vietnam-era bandolier for my mags because I think harnesses and shit are stupid and only confuse. People who are encumbered by their gear are dumb but they lololololook cool. I keep my weapons (and cars for that matter) simple.

Going shooting in the morning:

Attachment 187169

I have a good head on my shoulders and the ability to communicate very well with anyone effectively to de-escalate almost any situation. That is my primary carry weapon.

My backup only has an 8 round capacity and I do carry spare magazines.

Pusha already posted this, but I'll repeat it:

• 55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet.
• 20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet.
• 20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet.
• 95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)
• The average man can cover 21 feet of ground in 1.5 seconds.
• The average man cannot draw a gun from concealment in under 2 seconds.
• Seek and use cover. Be aware of false cover. (ie bushes - that's concealment, not cover)
• The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds.
• 3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
• Most gunfights take place in low light conditions.
• On average, one shot in four strikes someone.

Ever heard of better safe than sorry? Police around here even in the shittiest (small crimeless municipalities) carry AR15s in their patrol cars, and typically 3 pistol magazines on their belt.


Simple is easy to remember and easy to repeat. I always carry my cellphone in my left pocket, my wallet in my back, and keys in my right. Easy to find the first time, everytime. amirite?

Those are averages. I hope your a better shot then the average person, thats why we practice. Im just messing with you, I know what you mean.

I use to carry the .44 in the car on trips and a spare quick loader. Quick carrying the spare cause I was never in gunfight and only had to pull the gun once. A big as .44 difuses most situations without going off haha. Doubt Ill ever need more than a few.

I don't remember posting the above figures but they are accurate. I rarely, if ever, walk around with spare magazines on my person because I'm confident in my ability to put a hole in a target, organic or otherwise. Most police and law enforcement in general can't hit shit, in fact, I've seen very few hit paper with any regularity.

Look at the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout. I've been lectured on the intricacies of that event my entire life (I pass the site often). The reason Matix and Platt were so "successful" in the shootout was not because the Feds were outgunned, it was because they couldn't get a head shot to save their lives, literally in Dove and Grogan's case. Grogan had lost his glasses in the fray but no matter how blind, you should be able to make out the shape of a man armed with a Mini-14 sliding across the hood of your car. It was an unfortunate event but the Bureau learned something from it.

holy fucking shit:



what a bunch of morons

This is exactly how I feel about people who think they "need" to carry a fucking howitzer in their pants 'because a 9mm won't stop someone...'

A .22lr can kill someone with either a well placed shot, or good / bad luck depending on your outlook. The same can be said for a .25/.32. Growing up my best friends father was a LEO so we heard many stories from his duty. One story that comes to mind was a couple good old boys in a bar brawl one winter, both were carrying small caliber semi-automatic pistols and wearing winter carhart style jackets. Both ended up removing their pistols and emptying the magazine into one another, not a single shot made it through their jackets.

What's my point? Isn't ANY gun better than NO gun?



Admittedly I don't currently have a lot of real world experience in ballistic testing (yet) but have shot my fair share of things wondering, "what would this do??" One perfect example was located at a garage sale. Found what I believe is 2 40 year old pieces of personal armor test plate at some estate sale for $2.00. So we bought them. One we kept, the other we shot at. This test plate appeared to be made of 3 pockets sewn in thin canvas with 2 12 gauge steel plates stacked in each pocket.

Guns we had on the table this afternoon included:

Walther P22 .22lr
Walther PK380 .380ACP
Taurus .38spl 6"
S&W .357mag 6"
Glock 19 9mm
SKS 7.62x39
Colt AR15 .223 and .22LR bolt
Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R


We didn't bother using a .22lr on the test plate but now wish we had tried. All testing was done at 20 feet and was VERY scientific. If you call a 30 year old, 33 year old, and 56 year old men standing around giggling while shooting at this thing scientific.. :giggle:

The test plate failed to stop:
.38spl
.357mag
9mm
7.62x39
7.62x54R

The marked portions on the plate were present when we purchased. Interesting some of the rounds they sent at it did not penetrate, similar loads we tested did.

http://jugrnot.com/IMG_20110423_170119.jpg
http://jugrnot.com/IMG_20110423_170115.jpg

Notice I didn't mention the .380ACP?

http://jugrnot.com/IMG_7838.jpg
http://jugrnot.com/IMG_7839.jpg

Sellier and Bellot 92 grain FMJ factory load was all that steel plate stopped. Would you trust a .380acp for self defense? That carhart winter jacket wouldn't stop it and I don't carry 95gr FMJ's. Wish I would've tried some 117gr FMJs and JHPs from the 380 to see how much more energy they transferred.. I suspect the FMJ would've made 100% penetration but I'm sure the JHP's would've just put a really large and deep dent.

http://jugrnot.com/IMG_20110423_170125.jpg
Wish I would've marked where it hit on the plate. I cut it open to examine the steel and the round broke through the first layer of steel at POI but lost too much energy to break the second. Did put a huge fucking dent in it, though.

:makeout:

meh, I don't value body armor a whole lot as I wouldn't wear it on a late-night Walmart Tula mission. Ever go on one of those? They say they won't sell after 10 p.m. usually and I always tell them I'll remember next time... hehe

:bowrofl:

Those fuckers are DEAD SET on that 10pm shit too. Guess I'll have to knock off that 7-11 with an empty bangah.. :jerkit:

it's never been posted at the store I go to (~30 miles from where I live, it's the only one that still sells ammo). I usually just complain to the manager and because I've got more money on my wonderbread wrist than he'll make in a year, he'll cave.

I remember when the AWB passed in 1994, my dad took me to Walmart and to pick up the shopping cart the clerk he'd slipped a c-note had set aside for him. I still use many of those magazines and giggle when I think Walmart used to have good shit.

omw to the range, here's to hoping I don't get any shit for being a boss

I think piercing has to do with velocity. Last stat I heard was around 2200ft/sec to penetrate carbon kevlar.

Pistols arent very good for penetrating due to the shorter barrel. I bet if to you shot that plate with a 223 rifle itd penetrate. Im pretty sure my .223 loads are over 3000ft/sec.

Im not surprised by those guys not getting through a carhart especially if they were shooting something like a .22. 22s are barely supersonic from a rifle and go subsonic quick, and I think alot of .22 pistols dont even make supersonic speeds.

The only reason I shoot the .44 is because ive shot it since I was real little and I am very comfortable with it. My mother has shot a .38 since before I can remeber and she is a damn good shot with it. I know she is just as capable of a kill shot with it as I am with mine. Caliber has little to do with kill shots if you know how to shoot it well.

Those guys in the video are dumbasses I cant believe no one got shot. The only people who Ive seen hold a pistol sideways and shoot it that wasnt for exibition reasons where complete dumbasses but uh wait after seeing that video its still true.

Oh and if you shot someone with a big caliber pistol and the plate stopped it, it will probably still put them down temporarily, that is still alot of energy transfered into the plate/body

You should not use such declarative statements on everything. It takes away from valid points in your argument. Just saying....

OMG, I couldn't even finish watching that shit!



Hey guys, give me some advice. I would like a new toy but I cannot make my mind up on what to get. Which would be better to buy. An inexpensive AR or paratrooper (short barrel) style AK with a cheap folding stock? I would not keep the wood furniture on the AK (really wanting some black synthetic stuff for weight and looks). I'm leaning towards the AK due to reliability and cost.

Advice? Opinions?

An example of what I would be looking at on the AK:

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/2468390...x747427161.jpg

Norinco SKS 16" Barrel w/10rd mag w/folding stock - $425 + $25 +15 BIN shipped and FFL'd on gunbroker. I would probably remove the compensator to shorten it up those critical inches <G>.

I'd probably be looking at something like this or a $750 (total) AR.

Have you ever looked at the statistics of police shootings? More often than not, dozens of rounds fired yet only a small percentage (if any) find their mark.


I'd buy a Draco AK pistol over going all bubba on any sort of battle rifle. The Draco pistols are like $350 and have real Romanian barrels as pistols don't have to be 922r compliant (not sure if the gAyTF has begun cracking down on the importation yet).

Dude, that's one of the ugliest things I've ever seen. I hate when people destroy capable straps just to look cool. The SKS killed plenty of people in its original furniture, no need to bubba it up.

http://www.w3vietnam.org.nz/images/sks_rifle.jpg

Your original statement sounded like a trained police officer with hundreds of hours in the range cannot shoot as good as the average Joe off the street. Is it something in the doughnuts? Do they train them to shoot incorrectly? I just cannot agree with that. My guess is that in the heat of the moment most people shoot worse than what they do on a range but someone who has training would still be better.


The Draco is high on my list but I just haven't been able to pull the trigger on a purchase yet. If the zombies ever come or if society breaks down is the Draco and 5,000 rounds of ammo what I want to have with me? I don't know. None of these things are ever going to happen (I hope) so I don't know why I would put much importance on them.

As far as an SKS, I already have a Yugo 59/66 in wood. It is so damn heavy that I do not like shooting it. The only time it ever comes out of the case is when I want to shoot some golf balls out of the grenade launcher. Nothing cooler than walking out into the middle of the street and firing a few off. I keep the ATF papers with me that prove it is not a weapon when fired like that.

Anyway, thanks for the input. You might have steered me back towards the Draco.

Oh, so what do you think about a $750 AR? How about a $650 one? (not sure if I could find one)