What's wrong with superchargers?
10-01-2012, 08:37 PM
#162
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10-01-2012, 09:09 PM
#164
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VHS beat out Beta for four reasons:
1: Sony thought they could duplicate the success of their professional U-matic format, and decided to adopt a totally closed, proprietary model. JVC, by comparison, freely licensed the VHS technology to other manufacturers at a reasonable cost. By doing this, they created an intra-format price war in which the various VHS manufacturers competed with one another to drive down the cost of the machines, thus creating a large base of inexpensive machines which appealed to price-conscious consumers.
2: When it was first introduced, Beta could hold only 60 minutes (later 90 minutes by the use of thinner, longer tape) on a single cassette, whereas VHS debuted with a 2 hour cassette which was later stretched to 3 hours by the same technique. The immediately endeared VHS to both consumers and the video rental industry, as it meant that a whole Hollywood movie fit onto a single cassette, lowering costs (for the movie rental industry) and increasing convenience to the consumer by not having to change tapes halfway through.
3: Sony eventually resolved this dilemma by adding the B-II mode to later machines, which allowed them to run at a lower speed and, thus, hold a full movie on one tape. Of course, this immediately rendered all first-gen machines obsolete, as they were unable to play tapes recoded in the new format. It also rendered moot the relatively trivial quality advantage that Beta held over VHS in chroma resolution.
4: Faeflora was an early adopter of Beta.
Of course, it turns out that consumers (at that time) didn't really care about video quality enough to actually pay for it. Neither SuperBeta / ED Beta nor S-VHS attracted any significant consumer following, despite vastly improving picture quality in the form of increased horizontal resolution and decreased chroma noise. LaserDisc suffered the same fate- achieving only a small cult following despite a massive improvement in picture quality.
1: Sony thought they could duplicate the success of their professional U-matic format, and decided to adopt a totally closed, proprietary model. JVC, by comparison, freely licensed the VHS technology to other manufacturers at a reasonable cost. By doing this, they created an intra-format price war in which the various VHS manufacturers competed with one another to drive down the cost of the machines, thus creating a large base of inexpensive machines which appealed to price-conscious consumers.
2: When it was first introduced, Beta could hold only 60 minutes (later 90 minutes by the use of thinner, longer tape) on a single cassette, whereas VHS debuted with a 2 hour cassette which was later stretched to 3 hours by the same technique. The immediately endeared VHS to both consumers and the video rental industry, as it meant that a whole Hollywood movie fit onto a single cassette, lowering costs (for the movie rental industry) and increasing convenience to the consumer by not having to change tapes halfway through.
3: Sony eventually resolved this dilemma by adding the B-II mode to later machines, which allowed them to run at a lower speed and, thus, hold a full movie on one tape. Of course, this immediately rendered all first-gen machines obsolete, as they were unable to play tapes recoded in the new format. It also rendered moot the relatively trivial quality advantage that Beta held over VHS in chroma resolution.
4: Faeflora was an early adopter of Beta.
Of course, it turns out that consumers (at that time) didn't really care about video quality enough to actually pay for it. Neither SuperBeta / ED Beta nor S-VHS attracted any significant consumer following, despite vastly improving picture quality in the form of increased horizontal resolution and decreased chroma noise. LaserDisc suffered the same fate- achieving only a small cult following despite a massive improvement in picture quality.
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10-01-2012, 11:28 PM
#167
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Not reading whole thread, but I'dd add this as an avid non-competitive autoxer that drove an mp62 miata with MS1 (IE not FAILaids):
The requirements of a competitive autox car are much different than a 'fun' tuner street car and/or track car.
Heatsoak is far less of an issue,
Predictable, linear throttle response builds confidence in the chassis
instant on low end torque to pull of out tight turns (without shifting) at the expense of top end power is a compromise that the stopwatch will always show to be faster.
And that last point is really it. Shifting in autox takes time and if you dont get it just right it upsets the car, and even the best driver can't do it perfect 10+ times on a given national level course. The guy that can leave it in second and use the low-end to pull out the corners will beat you.
So... for a competitive autox* car you use a supercharger or a very small turbo, both of which will make compromises on top-end power.
I don't think its a coincidence that most of the members here dont autox in a super competitive fashion. Its called maitaTURBO.net and the turbo is probably not the best forced induction solution for a competitive miata based autoxcar.
-Brad
*lets leave the turbo rotaries out of this... they are a completely different animal because they flow so much more CFM and there fore have turbo options that work on a much larger operating range...
The requirements of a competitive autox car are much different than a 'fun' tuner street car and/or track car.
Heatsoak is far less of an issue,
Predictable, linear throttle response builds confidence in the chassis
instant on low end torque to pull of out tight turns (without shifting) at the expense of top end power is a compromise that the stopwatch will always show to be faster.
And that last point is really it. Shifting in autox takes time and if you dont get it just right it upsets the car, and even the best driver can't do it perfect 10+ times on a given national level course. The guy that can leave it in second and use the low-end to pull out the corners will beat you.
So... for a competitive autox* car you use a supercharger or a very small turbo, both of which will make compromises on top-end power.
I don't think its a coincidence that most of the members here dont autox in a super competitive fashion. Its called maitaTURBO.net and the turbo is probably not the best forced induction solution for a competitive miata based autoxcar.
-Brad
*lets leave the turbo rotaries out of this... they are a completely different animal because they flow so much more CFM and there fore have turbo options that work on a much larger operating range...
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10-02-2012, 12:24 AM
#170
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Goddammit you guys... There is nothing "wrong" with superchargers, they just do things differently. Just like there is nothing "wrong" with fae, he just does things differently. 
I think most of the FAIL/AIDS attitude regarding the vast majority of *charger systems has to do with their management. I honestly believe if JacksonRacing had started selling GT2554 kits with powercards instead of M45s there would be a lot more people bitching about turbos. Not because the 2445 is a bad turbo, but because the powercard still sucks. It really does not help that this management scheme was also built around CARB emissions compliance as well.
The super basic M45 PD blower kits w/powercards are very attractive to the average enthusiast. I bought one at one point and I know several of you guys had them too. Look at it like the average Joe the Plumber: Install is simple... no oil or water lines to plumb in, no intercooler that requires me to cut up my car, and no ECU that I have to program. Just bolt things together, plug in this black box, make the lights blink and I'm good! Sure its only good for 165hp and it wails like a banshee, but the torque on the street/autox feelsgoodbro.jpg. Even if FM had matched their Voodoo turbo + super/power/voodoo-card kits with the JRSC pricepoints, I still don't think people would buy them due to the complexity of the install. Ignorance, in this case, is bliss.
Look at the application: Is a PD blower optimal for HPDE? Absolutely not. Is a 2554 optimal? Absolutely not, and for exactly the same reason. In that same vein, a 3071R is absolutely miserable for AutoX, just ask Andrew. Sometimes you just can't remove a 10mm bolt with a 14mm wrench and sometimes you need a backhoe and not a post hole digger. Of course, some people will use a backhoe for everything and claim backhoe master race. BECAUSE PEOPLE.
Also, you bastards finally eclipsed my "longest thread" of fail in the supercharger section. I'm going to have to break and cry about a lot more **** to get my title back.
I think most of the FAIL/AIDS attitude regarding the vast majority of *charger systems has to do with their management. I honestly believe if JacksonRacing had started selling GT2554 kits with powercards instead of M45s there would be a lot more people bitching about turbos. Not because the 2445 is a bad turbo, but because the powercard still sucks. It really does not help that this management scheme was also built around CARB emissions compliance as well.
The super basic M45 PD blower kits w/powercards are very attractive to the average enthusiast. I bought one at one point and I know several of you guys had them too. Look at it like the average Joe the Plumber: Install is simple... no oil or water lines to plumb in, no intercooler that requires me to cut up my car, and no ECU that I have to program. Just bolt things together, plug in this black box, make the lights blink and I'm good! Sure its only good for 165hp and it wails like a banshee, but the torque on the street/autox feelsgoodbro.jpg. Even if FM had matched their Voodoo turbo + super/power/voodoo-card kits with the JRSC pricepoints, I still don't think people would buy them due to the complexity of the install. Ignorance, in this case, is bliss.
Look at the application: Is a PD blower optimal for HPDE? Absolutely not. Is a 2554 optimal? Absolutely not, and for exactly the same reason. In that same vein, a 3071R is absolutely miserable for AutoX, just ask Andrew. Sometimes you just can't remove a 10mm bolt with a 14mm wrench and sometimes you need a backhoe and not a post hole digger. Of course, some people will use a backhoe for everything and claim backhoe master race. BECAUSE PEOPLE.
Also, you bastards finally eclipsed my "longest thread" of fail in the supercharger section. I'm going to have to break and cry about a lot more **** to get my title back.
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10-02-2012, 08:30 AM
#173
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Yeah, when I'm sitting at traffic lights...
Jesus is it really that hard to stay above IDLE for you superchargerretards??? Even when I had a supercharger I NEVER used below 3000rpm past 1st gear and you can't ******* convince me that "low end torqe" was ANY kind of advantage. It wasn't.
Jesus is it really that hard to stay above IDLE for you superchargerretards??? Even when I had a supercharger I NEVER used below 3000rpm past 1st gear and you can't ******* convince me that "low end torqe" was ANY kind of advantage. It wasn't.
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10-02-2012, 09:01 AM
#177
I do enjoy lowend torque for daily driving, not gonna lie.
In my lesbaru there's over 220wtq @ 2500 and feels like a v6 til it hits boost, then all hell breaks loose. Not having to wind it out to get up and go is awesome.
But my lesbaru doesn't scream like a stabbed pig when I give it throttle. And it still has a buttload of power and torque all the way to redline. And is very quiet.
In my lesbaru there's over 220wtq @ 2500 and feels like a v6 til it hits boost, then all hell breaks loose. Not having to wind it out to get up and go is awesome.
But my lesbaru doesn't scream like a stabbed pig when I give it throttle. And it still has a buttload of power and torque all the way to redline. And is very quiet.
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