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Old 03-05-2010, 02:50 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
We need to find out if the shocks can take anything stiffer before thats even an option.

In my experience you can get spring in any size and any spring rate imaginable, but its not always cheap.
I was thinking more like go down a little in the rear.

If they're even close to 2.5" ID then the QA1s are a great (cheap) option. Most adjusters will take a slightly smaller or larger springs.

The Tein SS uses a 2.75" spring, and I test fit some QA1 2.5 inchers the other day.
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Old 03-05-2010, 03:00 PM   #82
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Ohhh

I figured everybody would want high spring rates, at least on the front to make up for the disproportionate rears.
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:06 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
I was thinking more like go down a little in the rear.

If they're even close to 2.5" ID then the QA1s are a great (cheap) option. Most adjusters will take a slightly smaller or larger springs.

The Tein SS uses a 2.75" spring, and I test fit some QA1 2.5 inchers the other day.
^^ This is why I was asking about the compatability with other springs. What rate will complement the front (400lb)??
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:11 PM   #84
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^^ This is why I was asking about the compatability with other springs. What rate will complement the front (400lb)??
Brain and I are convinced 400/250 is great for the street.

Not hard math or anything, just 50lb/in off the popular 450/300 dual purpose setups...but it took us both several setups to come to this conclusion.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:46 AM   #85
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you know what i meant you ------. honda application. not honda brand. they are still horrible rates for a miata. and no they are 7.1k/6.25k
lol.... of course i did, it just looked funny. but you sir are reading fail. i was being a smartass about MY spring rates.

anyway's i should note i'm not talkin' about the op post. (it was a cool review of his racelands on the street) or even your post brainslack, you ------ lover, i can see how it looked like i was, fail was grouped together with the teasing about the honda rates. it's just the same old bullshit afterwards that makes it stupid. that and this has all happened already on cr.net months ago. all the same discussions word for word. but i guess for those not on cr.net it might be helpful somewhat.

zx-tex, let me hit a few more tracks with them, i've only done msr-h with the spring rates i'm on now. (worked great!) with the stiffer springs (12k/8k) it was awesome in the turns, but beat me up on the dips/bumps in the straights at H2R. also wanna make sure they last before i recommend them to anyone. oh btw, i know what your saying about variables, but it's not like im a pro or something. alot of these cars and drivers i have beat up on were more experienced than me, (instructors/ 5-10yrs. de/tt exp.) and or had better cars than me (c5z, c6, s/c 911 carrera 4s, 944 turbo just to name a few) point being, my agx couldn't have been too bad keep up with or pass these type of cars/drivers at many diff. tracks. not to mention this car was my daily and i drove to every track event except redline time attack at VIR. that was a little too far of a drive. lol

Last edited by spoolin2bars; 03-06-2010 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:50 AM   #86
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If anyone knows of a shock dyno in SA i would be willing to take the plunge, especially if i can move this excess **** i am selling on craigslist.
EDIT: Would those spring rates be so terrible with no rear sway?
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:13 AM   #87
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It will help but the rates are too close to be offset by unbolting the rear bar. Comes out to 50% FRC. You would be better off getting some QA1 springs. Check out the Fat Cat Motorsports worksheets.

That whole helper spring arrangement makes it look like it would act like a progressive or dual-rate spring though. I think the FCM calculators are set up for constant rate springs.

Hell just try it. Unless you drive hard it may not be an issue.
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Old 03-06-2010, 04:42 AM   #88
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Just an FYI the helper spring is there to keep tention on the main spring under droop. It would probably not make a difference to take it out and save some weight. If I was t0 go order another set of Racelands I would first raise the front spring rate with a set of the grey ebay 450's and see if the valving can handle it. If that doesn't work drop the rear. If your a baller send them to SD for a revalve if he can open up the cartridge. Spoolin's on Racelands in Unlimited ...lol

Oh and if your being a parts hater STFU...

Jake
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:12 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
Where do you see racelands on there?

Also note he's got the rate in a R/F ratio format, not the F/R numbers we generally throw around. As that page reads, a higher percentage means a stiffer rear.
race land rates are given on this site Raceland Full Coilover Kit for Mazda MX5 NA if the information posted is to be believed its nice and stiff vs stock being well rather weak. I have nvr been one to carry nitroglicerin in my car etc hell i have solid motor mounts so i dont care so much about harshness.
Tein Type-Flex Coilover ALL 396 336 Linear 84.8% close enough imo to where the only negligable difference is in the damper itself.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:17 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
It will help but the rates are too close to be offset by unbolting the rear bar. Comes out to 50% FRC. You would be better off getting some QA1 springs. Check out the Fat Cat Motorsports worksheets.

That whole helper spring arrangement makes it look like it would act like a progressive or dual-rate spring though. I think the FCM calculators are set up for constant rate springs.

Hell just try it. Unless you drive hard it may not be an issue.
I was thinking of putting in a stiffer front sway (something cheap obviously, since I'm looking at ricelands to begin with), and removing the rear.

Can I trust the calculator and look for something stiff enough to get me back close to stockish %? maybe...

Can I trust the spring rates quoted on the riceland site? maybe not.

Is it worth putting the nb set on my na? I dunno, yous tell me.
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Old 03-08-2010, 01:15 AM   #91
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Well, i will be buying a NB set. I bought my suspension off a wrecked msm for super cheap. I got free nb top hats though, the springs seem somewhat stiff, they were stiffer than the stockers. I wonder what the spring rates those anyways.... Well back to the subject at hand. I think you could trust their rates. It is what they use on hondas. I would leave the baby springs on there too.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:16 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
That whole helper spring arrangement makes it look like it would act like a progressive or dual-rate spring though. I think the FCM calculators are set up for constant rate springs.
Those helper springs are typically like 10-20 lb/in. They are just there so the spring doesn't drop at full droop.

The NA rates of the Racelands, are rated at 400/350 a 1.14 F:R. They drop you from a 55% factory FRC to a 45% ratio. That means your transferring more weight to the rear of the car when you turn than the front. Making it very easy to over rotate. Even removing the rear bar and adding a larger front put its at 52%, which is still less than factory. So while it'll be a stiff setup and have little lean, the thing will be very tail happy.

If the spring rates were something like 400/250 (my next setup), then they'll be that much better for a balanced NA setup.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:15 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Those helper springs are typically like 10-20 lb/in. They are just there so the spring doesn't drop at full droop.

The NA rates of the Racelands, are rated at 400/350 a 1.14 F:R. They drop you from a 55% factory FRC to a 45% ratio. That means your transferring more weight to the rear of the car when you turn than the front. Making it very easy to over rotate. Even removing the rear bar and adding a larger front put its at 52%, which is still less than factory. So while it'll be a stiff setup and have little lean, the thing will be very tail happy.

If the spring rates were something like 400/250 (my next setup), then they'll be that much better for a balanced NA setup.
Damnit, the racelands site just bottomed out.

IIRC, the NB sprangs were 425 350, which certainly isn't much different, but should add a percentage point or two, eh? I fail at math.

Getting close enough to stock, some of the oversteer should be able to be dialed out with alignment, resulting in a pretty neutral car for the street.

These shouldn't be going to the track anyway.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:21 AM   #94
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Just remember, the stock NA has a roll stiffness of 1037 ft-lb/deg, so it only takes that much force to introduce one deg of body roll.

the Raceland setup has a roll stiffness of 2187.5 ft-lb/deg, twice the force required to introduce body roll. So, the car is much flatter make it easier to whip the tail around...something like that.

I'm running 550/300 springs. my FRC is 62%, with my torque output, it's still pretty easy for me to rotate out the rear end....even without a rear sway bar.

Althought I bet the raceland setup has really great turn-in reposonce and would work fine driving around spiritedly, I just think I'd like to increase the FRC more especially when we all have boosted cars.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:02 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Those helper springs are typically like 10-20 lb/in. They are just there so the spring doesn't drop at full droop.
But the springs are in series right, one on top of the other? If so that does not make sense to me.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:22 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
But the springs are in series right, one on top of the other? If so that does not make sense to me.
I would expect that the "helper springs" would need to be compressed to the start rate of the main springs at normal ride height on a level surface for this to work correctly. This might mean that a 10/20 in/lb spring would be fully compressed. I don't think that would work too well.

With two springs as pictured, I would think you would get first the compression rate of the thinner spring until it reaches the start rate of the heavier spring, and the the progressive rate of the two acting together.

I think we need an engineer to explain this. Ben?
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:46 AM   #97
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I think "assist springs" provide a progressive rate increase in a linear manner as they are compressed, something like that. You should see them with rates between 3-6 kg/mm.

But the helper springs are fully compressed with the weight of the car, so the simply prevent the spring from falling at droop without affecting the spring rates. They should come in rates between 0.5-1.5 kg/mm.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:48 AM   #98
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from the interwebz:

Quote:
Assist springs
Assist springs have two functions. The first is the spring adds a progressive rate to the initial portion of the stroke. This progression can add increased comfort is used on a daily driver coilover setup that has stiff springs installed. It provides racers added softer spring rate progression. Once the assist crushes, the normal spring rate will take over.
The second job is the same as helper springs. They prevent the loss of traction during rebound, and extreme cornering.

Assist springs are designed to repeatedly be fully crushed. Every assist spring crushes to the same height. That allows drivers to change assist springs without resetting the spring perch on coilover without changing ride height.

Helper Springs
Helper springs prevent dismounting of springs from perch on coilover
without changing spring rate.

Swift helper springs are specially designed to provide minimal effect on spring rate. Using helper springs allows the spring to stay firmly on its perch when the shock has negative or zero load. Driver should use helper springs if they experience springs coming loose from their perch and/or they can not preload the main spring because of car height issue.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:54 AM   #99
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I got the Racelands for a NB and put them on my NA. Only difference in mounting was the top hats and I got a stiffer spring rate up front FTW.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:01 PM   #100
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It would be nice for someone to provide a picture of the Racelands installed, sitting level with the wheels on the ground.
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