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Old 05-04-2009, 12:31 AM   #181
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First thing I notice in log 1 (2 55 23 PM) is a lot of noise on your MVSS signal. Same with RPM. Did it smooth out later in that same log? In the third (3 43 45 PM), the RPM is smooth but the MVSS is still **** crazy. It does calm down periodically but it should be a smooth curving line.
Yes that MVSS signal is really noisy and I do not know why. The other thing that makes no sense is it changes when I am just sitting still in neutral and rev the motor. I have not been able to get it set correctly as its too noisy to calibrate properly. The thing is, if this is just intercepting the speedometer drive signal, then why is my speedometer rock steady? It makes me think there is something strange going on with that particular input. I tried upping the tolerance level to 150 based on a thread I read at Adaptronic but it diid not seem to help.

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Also noticed your idle has a max duty cycle of over 100% and a minimum of 65%. The NB can handle down to 10 or 15 and up to 85 or 90 pretty reasonably. Probably wont help the rough running part though. still, it might help your idle.
Yeah what Stein said in the next post is correct. I was following the tuning instructions. I like the procedure you describe so I may try that next. Thanks for the numbers on the NB IAC valve range. I could not find anything.

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I dont see anything else obvious, but you may want to bump up the overrun minimum water temp to 150 just to rule it out. (power cut tab).
Good suggestion, you never know. It seems that it maxes out at 127 BTW.

While perusing the correction tab settings I noticed the "Set Primary injector dead time" chart has a bump at 11.0 volts (170) and 11.5 volts (160). I believe the intent is to compensate for slower injector opening at lower voltages. But if so, why the bump at only those two voltages? It drops back to 150 at 10.5 volts? Also, are these settings resonable for RX7 injectors, and ones being used with peak-and-hold?

Another thing... I installed the lower temp thermostat. Not too bad, took less than an hour even with it being on the back of the head (reroute). I took the car out for a drive with the A/C on full and the lights on. The temps did not get above 190F so the new thermostat is keeping the engine cooler. Get this though... When I got home, I parked the car in the driveway and let it idle with the A/C on. The temps were still cooler than with the old thermostat, about 185-190F IIRC. The car idled about 5 minutes, then died on its own again, like before. Damn it. We will see how it behaves tomorrow.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:34 AM   #182
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just backspaced over my post...

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Originally Posted by TFM
After the idle effort is calculated, it is clipped to fall within the "Minimum value" and
"Maximum value" specified in the Idle tabsheet. On a PWM type solenoid valve,
these will correspond to duty cycles as a percentage, and will be typically 0 and 100.
On some engines (such as the Mazda B-series DOHC) the idle valve starts to behave
non-monotonically below a certain duty cycle, so a minimum is specified to keep the
duty cycle outside this range.
so I have no clue why they'd run it over 100.

and the base idle table should still function the same. the only time changing the min and max values are when you're way outside the target idle values.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:43 AM   #183
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and the base idle table should still function the same. the only time changing the min and max values are when you're way outside the target idle values.

Here's what I was wondering: If they are percentages as you said earlier, why would it matter if max was, say, 200, 300 and min was any number lower than what you would ever see? Would it affect anything if you never reached the min or the max?

More to our case, would it matter if max was 80, 90 100, or 120 if you never get there?
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:04 AM   #184
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lets see... oh to clarify my post TFM is short for the manual.

You guys can probably just drop 15/85 in the duty cycle min/max and be good to go.

As for injector response, the easiest way to get the right data is to pull up the AEM tuner software. they had a thing they did a while back where they would test inj dead times for free and then added them all to the software... just checked, the rx7 injectors aren't listed. doh.

however, the line should be a soft curve that gets less steep from left to right. Probably about .6ish (60) at 14V, .9ish at 12V, 1.2ish at 10V and 1.8ish at 8V. But ideally you'd have the actual values to reduce fueling error.

Take a look at this page and you'll get the idea:
Injector-Rehab - Fuel injector cleaning, flow testing, and complete blueprinting service.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:07 AM   #185
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Here's what I was wondering: If they are percentages as you said earlier, why would it matter if max was, say, 200, 300 and min was any number lower than what you would ever see? Would it affect anything if you never reached the min or the max?

More to our case, would it matter if max was 80, 90 100, or 120 if you never get there?
the minimum does matter... when you use your brakes going down hill, if 50% braking doesn't slow you down, do you use more brakes or not?

that's how the minimum works. the ECU may need to close that thing down so your idle doesn't hang super high (which can be dangerous or at least unnerving--lots of revs with the throttle closed).

The max doesn't matter so much but it's nice to not let the ECU think it's got headroom that doesn't exist.

plus it forces you to have a more optimum setting for your idle screw.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:11 AM   #186
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the minimum does matter... when you use your brakes going down hill, if 50% braking doesn't slow you down, do you use more brakes or not?

that's how the minimum works. the ECU may need to close that thing down so your idle doesn't hang super high (which can be dangerous or at least unnerving--lots of revs with the throttle closed).

The max doesn't matter so much but it's nice to not let the ECU think it's got headroom that doesn't exist.

plus it forces you to have a more optimum setting for your idle screw.
OK, resetting tomorrow based on your writeup above. I'm just following a lead here. I don't know **** about tuning, asking what may be stupid questions, but trying to learn.

Boy we have a lot of views seeing as we have half a dozen running users.People feeling our pain?
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:14 AM   #187
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probably a few future buyers.

i'm trying to learn a little myself. i dont plan to use the idle settings, but i dont mind reading up a little.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:23 AM   #188
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You guys are making great contribs to future manuals. =) Everyone who is experiencing problems has installed larger injectors correct? No one ever had a problem until we started using larger injectors right?? I just wonder what problems the GTi swifts had when they would malfunction from running peak and hold when they enjoyed saturated modes.
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:53 AM   #189
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Boy we have a lot of views seeing as we have half a dozen running users.People feeling our pain?
I'm just a lurker trying to find an alternative to the $2K Hydra. You guys are my early adopters. I check this thread often trying to see if you guys have solved this. I wanted to extend my thanks for putting up with the headaches you gave has endured.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:57 AM   #190
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Boy we have a lot of views seeing as we have half a dozen running users.People feeling our pain?
I sold mine to Ismael (in Spain) and I'd really like for his to be a total success so I'm following this thread with a lot of interest.

I haven't even sent him the Adaptronic yet just in case Travis exchanges yours and it turns out that's the way to fix it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:25 AM   #191
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Everyone who is experiencing problems has installed larger injectors correct? No one ever had a problem until we started using larger injectors right?? I just wonder what problems the GTi swifts had when they would malfunction from running peak and hold when they enjoyed saturated modes.
I think so. I suppose that I could try putting my old stock ones back in to see if I can rectify the situation, but it would be a step backwards and kind of a pain.

I've been driving mine 50 miles a day and it's not bad - actually runs and drives well. It's just bad when I stop and restart hot.
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:40 AM   #192
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No one ever had a problem until we started using larger injectors right?? I just wonder what problems the GTi swifts had when they would malfunction from running peak and hold when they enjoyed saturated modes.
Just to clarify I have always had the RX7 550cc injectors.

Travis, heard anything from Adaptronic?
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:01 AM   #193
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Just to clarify I have always had the RX7 550cc injectors.

Travis, heard anything from Adaptronic?
I just prodded them this morning about this. I say we try to run in saturated mode. It will be a linear scaling of everything to do that.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:50 AM   #194
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I agree. I think that is the next thing to try. I used saturated mode with the Megasquirt, with these same injectors, and it worked fine. I really don't care about what my idle AFRs are as long as idle is stable, and AFR is somewhere above 12:1, both which I could do dependably with the MS.

I really think though that it would be worthwhile to get a good injector lag versus voltage plot for my injectors. I played with that a bit last night and it seems to make a difference though I was shooting in the dark. I do not want to pull my injectors out and send them off to be mapped just for this so I am hoping I can find some reasonable values on-line for RX7 550cc (Denso #195500-2020) injectors run in saturated mode. I want to do this before I switch over to saturated.

So what are you thinking Travis, turn off peak-and-hold, and then use the master fuel trim to get it idling/running again (linear scaling)?
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:05 AM   #195
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Tex,

That's the way to do it, but everything is going to change, including cranking maps. So when you try to fire the motor, you might have to play with your cranking values.

Stein,

I cannot remember if I sent you the dead time curve for the Deatschwerks injectors or not. If I haven't just let me know and I'll get it over to you.


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I agree. I think that is the next thing to try. I used saturated mode with the Megasquirt, with these same injectors, and it worked fine. I really don't care about what my idle AFRs are as long as idle is stable, and AFR is somewhere above 12:1, both which I could do dependably with the MS.

I really think though that it would be worthwhile to get a good injector lag versus voltage plot for my injectors. I played with that a bit last night and it seems to make a difference though I was shooting in the dark. I do not want to pull my injectors out and send them off to be mapped just for this so I am hoping I can find some reasonable values on-line for RX7 550cc (Denso #195500-2020) injectors run in saturated mode. I want to do this before I switch over to saturated.

So what are you thinking Travis, turn off peak-and-hold, and then use the master fuel trim to get it idling/running again (linear scaling)?
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:08 AM   #196
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Tex,

Stein,

I cannot remember if I sent you the dead time curve for the Deatschwerks injectors or not. If I haven't just let me know and I'll get it over to you.

I don't think that you did, you just changed it in my ECU file and sent it to me. Please send.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:13 AM   #197
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The latency values for the injectors are below. Measured in ms from 6v-17v in 1v increments.


3.57 2.87 2.42 2.10 1.88 1.71 1.59 1.47 1.35 1.27 1.19 1.12
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:35 AM   #198
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The latency values for the injectors are below. Measured in ms from 6v-17v in 1v increments.


3.57 2.87 2.42 2.10 1.88 1.71 1.59 1.47 1.35 1.27 1.19 1.12
That is for the Deatschwerks injectors, right?

I sent an e-mail to injector rehab to see if they have lag data for the Denso 2020. I'll let you know if I get a response.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:39 AM   #199
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ZX,

Yes thats the lag for the deatschwerks injectors which seems long compared to most. I don't know about the RX-7 injectors, but that information has to be out there somewhere. Maybe Check RX-7 forums?
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:48 AM   #200
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I found this
Yahoo! Groups
"Got this info second hand off the AEM forums RX7 section:
550cc, not sure if high or low impedance.
v/microseconds curve:

6 2550
7 2320
8 1780
9 1440
10 1210
11 1000
12 860
13 730
14 630
15 540
16 440"
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