Sudden rough running [resolved] - Page 11 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 05-04-2009, 11:52 AM   #201
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Looks like solid saturation driven high impedance numbers to me.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:05 PM   #202
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Any downside to running saturated instead of peak and hold, other than having to idle richer?
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:14 PM   #203
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There shouldn't be any real downside to it. The idle should be the same afr as present, the performance should be the same, the downside comes with injector pulsewidth length. You'll run out of fuel a little faster because the dead time is longer, but we don't know how much longer. The peak and hold mode just sends a lump of current down the line at the beginning of a cycle, this helps power up the solenoid to get the injector open. With a saturation mode its just supplied the voltage differential so its going to react a little slower.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:27 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Looks like solid saturation driven high impedance numbers to me.
Though it is not the same injector, the numbers are very close to the Subaru STI 550cc high-impedance injector, which I think is also made by Denso. From injector Rehab's page:
Subaru Impreza STI (top feed).
10V 1.23
11V 1.04
12V 0.87
13V 0.74
14V 0.62
15V 0.53
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:05 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Though it is not the same injector, the numbers are very close to the Subaru STI 550cc high-impedance injector, which I think is also made by Denso. From injector Rehab's page:
Subaru Impreza STI (top feed).
10V 1.23
11V 1.04
12V 0.87
13V 0.74
14V 0.62
15V 0.53
As long as it is close. Every injector has flow inconsistency's and differences in dwell time anyway.
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:57 PM   #206
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OK I spent my lunch hour switching over to saturated. I programmed the voltages above in the compensation table. I retuned the idle AFR, and a lot of the mid cells in the fuel map. I had it running pretty well for only an hour of tuning. And then it happened again, it started running like crap when it got hot. I screwed with it about 15 minutes trying to tune it out and nothing worked. I finally got fed up and reloaded the latest peak-and-hold map to get me back.

So, my initial impression of the saturation route is FAIL, at least as far as fixing the problem at hand. Someone else is welcome to try though and prove me wrong.

I am really getting fed up with this problem right about now. We have been messing with this for almost two weeks and it is still not solved. No offense, but Adaptronic really needs to get this figured out very soon or I am going to seriously consider switching back to MS. Considering what my time is worth, and how much time I have spent on just this one problem, I could have paid for the parts and built another MS by now, if not a MS-II. The additional features on the Adaptronic are great, but this problem is severe enough to overshadow that.

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 05-04-2009 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:34 PM   #207
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Well at this point I don't have anymore ideas. The Adaptronics should be here soon, and I'll get you a replacement unit. Meanwhile, hopefully Rob will get back to us.

It has to be related with injectors somehow though. No one has ever had even the smallest problem on stock injectors...
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:20 PM   #208
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lets brainstorm... what does heat affect?
  • things that soften or deform with temperature
    • spark plug wires
    • water hoses
    • vacuum lines
    • couplers
  • deliberate compensations (water and air temp, several settings)
  • marginal wiring
  • marginal grounding
  • electrical loads / battery voltage
    • fan comes on (2) and draws current

please add to the list.
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:28 PM   #209
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I agree with ZX, it isn't just injectors. Every day for two weeks now, mine runs fine cold and for as long as I am actively moving in town or on the highway. Stop for even a couple of minutes to get gas, or an hour for lunch, it will be terrible after that. In my case it does clear up after enough drive time.

Rob hopefully can figure out why my trim goes flatline after it gets warm. I think that will cure my problem. It just goes lean when it can't add any fuel trim and it dies. It isn't because my idle AFR is bad, either. If I feather the gas to let it catch idle, it settles at 13.9. If I just lef off the gas and put it in neutral, I can watch the AFR slowly climb until 1,500 rpm and then the move quickly to lean at idle RPM and it dies. Every once in a while, RMP recovery will catch it and bounce it up, but it will die on the next oscillation.

After limping it along until it gets some air moving, the trim starts working again.
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:35 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
lets brainstorm... what does heat affect?
[*] electrical loads / battery voltage
  • fan comes on (2) and draws current
[/LIST]
Specifically, does resistance go up or down when things get hot? Could that affect injectors?
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:50 PM   #211
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Resistance goes up as things get hot.
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:55 PM   #212
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A/C clutch cycles more often
A/C condenser produces more heat
Fans cycle more (cycling on and off with the A/C clutch ).
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Old 05-04-2009, 05:01 PM   #213
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Not to derail the brainstorm, but I just had another possible idea. When I set the base idle per the link above, it said to do when it is up to temp but with without any electrical loads. Thus, I did it at 90*C, so before the fan came on.

Now, considering that the fan is on continuously, as in my case it comes on at 97 and off at 90, but it never drops that low, could I consider the fan in the "base rate" idle setting?

I'm wondering if the extra effort for electrical load is even catching this? I might just set the base rate again with the fan on and then temperature idle tune again. I might just use Matt's base idle setting method this time, or maybe just do it the same way to eliminate variables.
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Old 05-04-2009, 05:42 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
Not to derail the brainstorm, but I just had another possible idea. When I set the base idle per the link above, it said to do when it is up to temp but with without any electrical loads. Thus, I did it at 90*C, so before the fan came on.

Now, considering that the fan is on continuously, as in my case it comes on at 97 and off at 90, but it never drops that low, could I consider the fan in the "base rate" idle setting?

I'm wondering if the extra effort for electrical load is even catching this? I might just set the base rate again with the fan on and then temperature idle tune again. I might just use Matt's base idle setting method this time, or maybe just do it the same way to eliminate variables.
there's an extra effort setting for things like fans isn't there? you can set up an aux in as "electrical load" and have it trigger another 100 rpm idle increase.

like i said before, the authority min and max can be set to 15/85 without affecting anything but the ECU's ability to nail the target better.

...

Can one of you try setting your fan temp to like 70 C and see if it makes everything go haywire?
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Old 05-04-2009, 05:48 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
Can one of you try setting your fan temp to like 70 C and see if it makes everything go haywire?
I'll try it tonight if it cools enough that upon restart it runs well, I will change it and drive.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:47 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
there's an extra effort setting for things like fans isn't there? you can set up an aux in as "electrical load" and have it trigger another 100 rpm idle increase.
There's an aux input assigned to "electrical load" which I think has to be triggered to get the extra effort that's in the idle set up.

For me, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't matter what electrical device I turn on the aux input on the ECU (F2) window never changes state. I've played with it in both open and closed loop.

On a side note, there's two aux inputs assigned to Clutch on the base map - any reason for this?
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:12 PM   #217
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ZX,
You're using the GM Air Temp sensor right? Did you calibrate it? You're curve looks quite a bit different than what I found. Comparing the curves it looks like your intake temp is actually +15*C than what it is compensating for. I think the air temp compensation y8s has are set for using the GM calibration.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:30 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
lets brainstorm... what does heat affect?
  • things that soften or deform with temperature
    • spark plug wires
    • water hoses
    • vacuum lines
    • couplers
  • deliberate compensations (water and air temp, several settings)
  • marginal wiring
  • marginal grounding
  • electrical loads / battery voltage
    • fan comes on (2) and draws current

please add to the list.
Let me throw this out... I have no idea if it will help or not because it may be a case of apples to oranges.
Y'all have Turbos... I have a Supercharger...
Y'all already have the unit installed... I don't and I'm still running with the PC Pro and Timing cards...

But, I suffer the same rough running when the temp goes up enough to cause the fans to kick in. My pain point seems to be 201F. The idle bounces between the low 700's to the low 800's. I've made the baseline idle adjustments multiple times and the idle behaves for a while, but the roughness soon returns. I have the same symptoms with the COPs or with the coils/MagnaCore 8.5 wires. I may try replacing the plugs just because.

The reason, I'm posting this info, is because I'm not so sure that your problems/issues are with the Adaptronic unit per se. Same symptoms, but different aux controls. I suspect that it's some underlying issue that is amplified/magnified by our piggy-back/parallel ECUs. In my case the piggy-backs use the OEM ECU's ground and power and are piggy-backed via a harness similar to the Adaptronic ('cept no big circuit board). I think that I'm going to revisit all my grounds and power points. Even when the fans kick in, the system voltage barely fluctuates (according to my ScanGauge). I'll let y'all know if my efforts change or eliminate the issue.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sv650_ck View Post
There's an aux input assigned to "electrical load" which I think has to be triggered to get the extra effort that's in the idle set up.

For me, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't matter what electrical device I turn on the aux input on the ECU (F2) window never changes state. I've played with it in both open and closed loop.

On a side note, there's two aux inputs assigned to Clutch on the base map - any reason for this?
the inputs should activate when grounded. do the fan outputs ground when they turn on?

the clutch inputs are assigned to the clutch switch and the neutral switch but serve the same function. it tells the ECU the car doesn't have the transmission engaged to the drive wheels--either the clutch is in or it's in neutral.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:22 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
the inputs should activate when grounded. do the fan outputs ground when they turn on?
Fans off, ign on, V-G measured at the coil wire going back to the ECU is ~12V. Fans on V-G drops to .044v so I'd guess the ecu input is grounded. There's no change in the electrical load digital input state when the fans comes on.
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