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Old 05-01-2009, 07:45 PM   #161
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Quote:
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You mean what you sent me this morning? If so, no. I'm going to try it tonight.

What do you think of my flatline trim logs above?
I'm not sure why it just goes flat... It does seem odd.

Did you change the VVT settings ZX?
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:14 PM   #162
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I had also changed to 22ms before coming home from work. Same outcome as ZX. Installing Travis' tweaked map for VVT now. Will report back shortly.

Also, I watched when I hot started agian just now. It won't catch and idle and trim is still flatlined at 4.
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:24 PM   #163
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OK, I just uploaded Travis' changed map. Zero change in the idle characteristics. High fluctuating AFR's, low RPM (fluctuating between 600-800), flatline trim at 4, died a couple of times so no change.
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:34 PM   #164
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ZX, I just looked at your log called Volt Test up above. I see your trim is flat lined at 3 or 4 throughought the run as well. There must be something to this. My trim used to react as needed to help keep to target AFR.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:09 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Did you change the VVT settings ZX?
Yep. Not sure if I got everything but here is what I did:
- Under engine, advanced, trigger setup, I made sure all three triggers were set to no VVT
- Under Special functions, variable valve timing, I set all of the values in that box to zero. I just realized though I have some non-zero values in the 'VVT1 angles' table so I'll zero those out next.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:22 PM   #166
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I think I figured it out. I had posted this How to tune idle earlier but I never did it.

I was playing with the Idle Overall Control minimum settings as I saw with a rough hot idle that it was always limited at the lowest setting. So I started bumping the minimum value up. It ended up that 68 or 69 raised the idle enough that it was stable.

So, I decided to do the tuning method in the link above. Zeroed the min and max, tuned the bypass screw to reach 980 rpm ( I assume that 1,000 is normal hot idle) and and changed Max back to 120. It revved up and then settled.

Now I'm waiting for it to cool down completely and will start upping the values in the table as the temps go up from cold per the instructions.

This should get it. I don't know why I always assumed it was good. I had to back the idle air screw out a couple of turns. This should completely kill the idle droop. Will report back.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:42 PM   #167
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Very nice. I need to do this as well. I am sure we could share maps and be close, but it is probably best to tune this myself per the procedure. I would like to hear how it works for you though.
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:31 PM   #168
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For reference, here's what my cold and warm starts look like with stock injectors. There's a couple of place where the trim goes flat on the warm start but AFRs stay fairly steady. I think it's time for a new battery though.
Attached Thumbnails
Sudden rough running [resolved]-cold-start-graph.png   Sudden rough running [resolved]-warm-start-5_1.csv.png  
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Old 05-02-2009, 01:00 AM   #169
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So this evening I went through the open and closed loop idle procedure that Stein linked to above in post #166. The idle is definitely more stable now, and stays between 800-1000 rpm even when I go from no load to turning on the headlights and a/c (blower on 4) at the same time. Idle will sag to about 800 rpm initially but recover in a few seconds. Nice. Before I was seeing 700-1300 RPM.

I also had to adjust the idle mixture screw a bit too. I also used 65% as the minimum value. IIRC P=5, I=3, D=0. Making minor adjustments to the AFR in the idle cells while checking the closed loop settings also helped stability.

Not sure if this will fix the rough running problem or not but at least the idle is better now. Thanks for the link Stein.
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:08 PM   #170
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do you guys have any idea what the critera for TRIM % are? Have you watched the fuel trim calculation trace under the help menu to see what contributes?

next time you notice it doing that and have the computer in the car, pull it up and see if you can learn anything.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:00 PM   #171
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OK well I am still having the rough running problem. Plus I think I need to work on the idle tuning a bit more. It was working great last night in the driveway. But this morning it was doing some idle hunting after driving the car, parking, then restarting about 20 minutes later. I think I'll go back to open loop idle, tune it a bit more, then activate closed loop again.

Before when I noticed the trim I think it was coming from the IAT trim setting IIRC. The trim value corresponded to the setting for IAT correction for the IAT at that moment.
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Old 05-03-2009, 01:31 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
OK well I am still having the rough running problem. Plus I think I need to work on the idle tuning a bit more. It was working great last night in the driveway. But this morning it was doing some idle hunting after driving the car, parking, then restarting about 20 minutes later. I think I'll go back to open loop idle, tune it a bit more, then activate closed loop again.

Before when I noticed the trim I think it was coming from the IAT trim setting IIRC. The trim value corresponded to the setting for IAT correction for the IAT at that moment.
Exactly the same result that I had. Worked great in the garage. Still stumbled and died on the road.

I'm going to go through it again tomorrow as well.

BTW, you can go back to open loop with those IAC settings by just changing PID back to zero on those three boxes. That's what I did and started tweaking the idle. It got a little better. After I get a good idle again, I'm going to go back and do the whole idle screw thing again. Still battling the lean tip in issue, real bad.
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Old 05-03-2009, 09:59 AM   #173
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That is basically what I did, changed PID back to 0 then played with the closed loop settings. I added some more a/c effort for the most part. Then I started tuning PID again. Even though the guide recommends against it, I added some D and it seems to work better. I need to take it for a drive to be sure though.
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Old 05-03-2009, 06:35 PM   #174
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OK well the idle is working better, but the rough running issue is still there...

It happened again today on the way home crusing on the highway with the A/C on. It is in the mid 90s here today. Coolant temp climbed to about 210F and like clockwork it started running like crap. I had to turn off the A/C, roll down the windows, and limp the car down the highway (could barely do 50 mph) until it cooled off and started running well again.

Later on during the same drive the car did the same thing. I was cruising slower, about 30-40 mph on a back road, so there was not as much airflow through the radiator. The a/c was still off though. Temps climbed, and it started missing again. I finally had to pull over and wait for the car to cool off before I could get underway again.

Keep in mind that the difference between completely OK and not OK at all is only 5-10 degrees. So just a small change in thermal load, like road speed, acceleration, A/C on or off, is enough to send it over the edge.

I have not heard anything from Adaptronic so I am assuming the problem is not solved yet. So, for now, I am going to remove the stock thermostat and install a 180F thermostat. Since the problem seems to happen when the car is at about 205-210F, going with a 180F themostat should keep the coolant temps about 10-20F lower, and thus hopefully avoid the eating **** zone. This way I can keep driving and tuning it until someone figures out WTF is going on.

I am going to swap the thermostat tonight and will let you guys know if it does the trick.

I have many logs of this going on now. Travis let me know if you want them.

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 05-03-2009 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 05-03-2009, 08:11 PM   #175
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post a log and your current map. I forget if you posted one before.
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Old 05-03-2009, 09:47 PM   #176
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Here is a zip with three log files from today and the corresponding (latest) ecu file. I have not looked these logs over yet but I will this evening. The logs were done with the latest version of WARI, so they have times in the file names and no quotation marks in the header.

On at least one of the logs, I forget which one, the rough running is going on right at the beginning of the log.
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File Type: zip 5-3-2009_3 43 45 PM.zip (156.3 KB, 33 views)

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 05-03-2009 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 05-03-2009, 11:09 PM   #177
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First thing I notice in log 1 (2 55 23 PM) is a lot of noise on your MVSS signal. Same with RPM. Did it smooth out later in that same log? In the third (3 43 45 PM), the RPM is smooth but the MVSS is still **** crazy. It does calm down periodically but it should be a smooth curving line.

Also noticed your idle has a max duty cycle of over 100% and a minimum of 65%. The NB can handle down to 10 or 15 and up to 85 or 90 pretty reasonably. Probably wont help the rough running part though. still, it might help your idle.

I dont see anything else obvious, but you may want to bump up the overrun minimum water temp to 150 just to rule it out. (power cut tab).
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Old 05-03-2009, 11:16 PM   #178
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Also noticed your idle has a max duty cycle of over 100% and a minimum of 65%. The NB can handle down to 10 or 15 and up to 85 or 90 pretty reasonably. Probably wont help the rough running part though. still, it might help your idle.
I'm pretty sure he has his idle duty cycle max at 120 like mine, as that is what they instructed to do in the idle tuning thread on the Adaptronic forum. If your numbers are accurate, it might make sense to retune idle air from cold with a max at 90 instead of 120. I'm only assuming here, but is it just a ratio and the lower max would essentially "scale" the values or is it absolute and a set value in percent?
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Old 05-03-2009, 11:31 PM   #179
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Quote:
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I'm pretty sure he has his idle duty cycle max at 120 like mine, as that is what they instructed to do in the idle tuning thread on the Adaptronic forum. If your numbers are accurate, it might make sense to retune idle air from cold with a max at 90 instead of 120. I'm only assuming here, but is it just a ratio and the lower max would essentially "scale" the values or is it absolute and a set value in percent?
it says right above the setting that it's % duty cycle.

the way it's been explained to me or I read somewhere or hell, I forget is that you set it to open loop and then set both numbers to 1 or 0 if it lets you. at that point, the valve is closed and only the idle screw is dictating idle air flow.

set it to around 750 or so RPM with the ISC closed and then start incrementing the min and max until the RPMs rise. that should be your minimum % duty cycle. in other words, if it's any lower, it is essentially closed. set the value to a couple percent above that minimum you determined.

as for max, it's harder because the car will idle at 3500 rpm with the valve fully open. if you want to do it for completeness, set max to 100 (note your min but leave it where it is) and start closing down the idle screw until the RPM drops. you may want to turn on some electrical loads to cheat this (I'm not sure if you can get it so that the idle valve is fully open with the screw closed, but it's worth trying). ... anyway, keep closing down the screw until you run out of RPM or screw. I think the calculation trace will show you when the idle effort tops out at your max setting. if / when it does, you can set both numbers to 100 and start dropping them until the RPM actually starts to drop. when it does, that is your max idle duty %. set the value a few percent below that (or note the number).

then redo the first part to find the idle screw setting you had before. or better yet, do the max value first
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Old 05-03-2009, 11:36 PM   #180
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That is a completely different way to do it than they suggested, but it also makes sense. Basically, they said to zero min and max, get car warm, adjust idle air screw until it is 20 rpm under target idle, reset max to 120, cool car, start and adjust each temp level value until it hits your target idle, warm 5*, adjust to target, all the way up to operating temp.
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