Sudden rough running [resolved] - Page 13 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-06-2009, 08:05 AM   #241
Junior Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 455
Total Cats: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
But, for some reason, it won't take extra effort for electrical. I can't get it to run fan high, AC on and lights. It just surges.
I'm having the same problem. According to Travis's installation manual, the electrical load input (Aux In 3) is wired to the PSP switch. Is this the power steering pump?

Is there a way to get extra effort when the cooling fan, lights, defroster, etc., turn on?
sv650_ck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 10:54 AM   #242
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

You'll have to wire in other electrical loads seperately to the input channels and list them as electrical loads. The A/C and power steer pump are compensated for.

I've never had a problem with my idle settings surging under everything on, I know you guys have been modifying the PID, what numbers are you running now? It should be within the trim of the IAC valve to take care of extra load by the alternator. I don't think any other standalone does it like that either. None that i've seen at least.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:13 AM   #243
Elite Member
iTrader: (46)
 
Stein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,812
Total Cats: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
You'll have to wire in other electrical loads seperately to the input channels and list them as electrical loads. The A/C and power steer pump are compensated for.
Huh? So how do we "wire in" the rad fan, blower fan, lights, window defrost, etc? Do you mean hard wire or map them to inputs?

If map only, how does one identify the loads?
Stein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:17 AM   #244
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I've never had a problem with my idle settings surging under everything on, I know you guys have been modifying the PID, what numbers are you running now?
I agree the idle PID loop should compensate. But right now I believe we are all tuning in open loop idle (I am) per the previous discussion about leaving closed loop idle off for now. Plus I am thinking it should be off while tuning the idle air correction table so that it is not fighting the PID. Normally, for most things, the base open loop settings should be decently tuned before closed loop is tuned, correct?

So should we consider turning the idle PID back on? And if so, what PID values do you suggest? I would much rather do that then have to rewire for the fans and what not.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:33 AM   #245
Elite Member
iTrader: (46)
 
Stein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,812
Total Cats: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
I agree the idle PID loop should compensate. But right now I believe we are all tuning in open loop idle (I am) per the previous discussion about leaving closed loop idle off for now. Plus I am thinking it should be off while tuning the idle air correction table so that it is not fighting the PID. Normally, for most things, the base open loop settings should be decently tuned before closed loop is tuned, correct?

So should we consider turning the idle PID back on? And if so, what PID values do you suggest? I would much rather do that then have to rewire for the fans and what not.
I only turned mine on and went back to full closed loop because it seemed to be running well open loop, except for the lack of idle increase for electrical loads. I'm going back to open and zeroing PID until I get the electrical loads figured out.
Stein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:36 AM   #246
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Something else too... While looking at the flow charts, I noticed the injector dwell time correction was 0.00. According to the injector dwell table I set up, using the values I found for Denso 550cc RX7 injectors (mentioned earlier), the value should be about 0.63 or so.

I also noticed yesterday with the old injector dwell table, that the value was -1.00. I do not understand that one either.

Sorry for the crappy cell phone picture but you get the idea.
Attached Thumbnails
Sudden rough running [resolved]-injector-flow-chart.jpg  
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:40 AM   #247
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
I don't know, I give up for the night. My wife won't appreciate 4K revs at this hour. Will try again tomorrow, likely starting over in case I missed something.
I have the same problem. neighbors look at me funny cuz of all the backfires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
Huh? So how do we "wire in" the rad fan, blower fan, lights, window defrost, etc? Do you mean hard wire or map them to inputs?

If map only, how does one identify the loads?
Since the Adap has a "ground this wire to enable electrical load trigger", you basically have to splice pull-to-ground outputs into that wire with a diode. the diode is to make sure that when you turn the fans on, the AC doesn't come on too. or when you turn the steering wheel, the fans dont come on. (diode stripe points toward device, not adaptronic--and each loading device gets a diode).



so for all you guys NEXT test, unplug the idle control valve and set the idle value manually with the screw. say to about 1100 rpm. that's one way to rule it out.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:43 AM   #248
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Something else too... While looking at the flow charts, I noticed the injector dwell time correction was 0.00. According to the injector dwell table I set up, using the values I found for Denso 550cc RX7 injectors (mentioned earlier), the value should be about 0.63 or so.

I also noticed yesterday with the old injector dwell table, that the value was -1.00. I do not understand that one either.

Sorry for the crappy cell phone picture but you get the idea.
car running or off?
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:46 AM   #249
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
car running or off?
Running at idle. About 1000-1100 rpm. Voltage about 14.2-14.5V
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 11:58 AM   #250
Elite Member
iTrader: (46)
 
Stein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,812
Total Cats: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post

Since the Adap has a "ground this wire to enable electrical load trigger", you basically have to splice pull-to-ground outputs into that wire with a diode. the diode is to make sure that when you turn the fans on, the AC doesn't come on too. or when you turn the steering wheel, the fans dont come on. (diode stripe points toward device, not adaptronic--and each loading device gets a diode).



Lulz, what's a diode...


****. So much for PnP. Me + electronics/wiring = FAIL. I was lucky to get this far.

Travis, is all this stuff already in that big honking board in the harness?
Stein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 12:14 PM   #251
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Yo G a di-ode is the toast da crew makes wit Courvoisier afta a playa gets capped.

Yeah so much for PNP. We really need to get some action from Adaptronic here. It is not like we are a bunch of tuning noobs wanting to be spoon fed. We are trying our best but not getting it done for whatever reason.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 12:41 PM   #252
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

I'm going to be working on this project all day today, and I know Rob as well as Andy are concentrating on it. They only move so fast, and they are kind of miffed I think. Out of all the testing in Australia and all the testing I did for a long time I never had a problem like this. I only sold these after I had tested them for around a year of daily driving with zero problems. Once the units make it into other people’s hands and everything starts getting manipulated it’s hard to isolate exactly what a rough running problems cause is.

I still stand by the units as PNP, because that is exactly what I experienced when using the units. That is also what Rob and Andy have experienced on the hundreds they've sold in Europe, Australia and outlying continents. You shouldn't need to wire anything in, you shouldn't have to change anything unless you want to add an EBC or WI or something... We've just got to do a thorough analysis on EVERYTHING that is in these WARI files. We have to make sure the flashes are correct. We have to make sure grounds have not been rerouted, loosened, corroded.

For all we know we could have a corrupt tuning file from an email losing a couple of bits and all the changes we are making on one of these files is just getting passed back and forth with that same error in it. There are a million different variables before we even get to the ECU that could be causing this problem. Then once we're at the ECU it could be a loose/bad/interfering ground, some kind of weird resonance caused be these honking injectors that is causing electrical interference who knows.

The only reason you guys need these extra inputs is if you are running open loop idle. Open loop idle is really tricky because you only get as much idle duty cycle as what is on the map. No car is really supposed to run that way. The reason they did the PSP and the A/C is because those are big power draws and they didn't want the closed loop having to swing 10 percent just for those 2 things.

So My plan of attack is to come up with an entire checklist today of things to check. If everything fails, and for whatever reason the harness or the ECU is bad we can get them fixed.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 02:13 PM   #253
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 104
Total Cats: 0
Default

Okay, a little word from me

The way mazda designed it on a NA miata:
A generator which just works or fails. To know there is extra electrical load there are wires from the PSP A/C headlights blower fan etc. to the ecu to gain extra rpm's at idle to make the engine more stable.

The way mazda designed it on a NB miata:
A generator that is controled bij output voltage and engine rpm's, to make a more stable output of voltage. Because of this there are no wires from the above mentioned electric users to the ecu, and mazda designed it so that a extra rpm's aren't needed.

The guys from Adaptronic mounted some resistors in the printboard to make sure the nessecary input is there for the ecu to control the generator.

When I started to drive with adaptronic on my stock engine I suffered from idle drops when a (few) electrical loads where switched on at the same time.
My supplyer looked for me what coold be wrong, and it whas a fact that on idle I whas running a bit to lean. After correction the idle dip is a lot smaller (rpms) and shorter (sec) then before.
What he noticed is that the speed wereby the voltage is controled is a bit low. I stil have to search for that problem. I still have three faultcodes, and I'm suspecting that one of those is the problem because one of these is TPS. I can amazing that when the ecu can't see TPS=0 the ecu don't know there is an closed throtlle and go to idle control for the generator. The only thing is that from the control relationship chart (on page 01-02A-5) there isn't a direct connection between these.

I'm running at cloosed loop idle control and am realy satisfied with it.
I copied the PID settings from Travis if I aint wrong (272)
martijn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2009, 02:40 PM   #254
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

OK thanks Travis. I'll be happy to run through that checklist as soon as you send it out.

For the record:
1. This problem aside (other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?)... I have been happy with the Adaptronic. It otherwise seems to work well, as advertised. I can change the settings for the outputs, like the fans and the EBC open-loop table, and they work. And, the adaptive tuning for the fuel map is working. For example, I had to hand-trim the injector table after changing the voltage versus injector lag map. As a result, the AFRs were off in the upper cells, got a tad lean under boost, about 12.75:1. So I turned on adaptive tuning again, did a couple of pulls, and bam, the AFR is flat again, right at 12:1 all the way to red line; 12:1 is what I had the target AFR set for.

2. I know these guys have sold a lot of these units. That is why we need their help. For example, we cannot be the only ones trying to use RX7 550cc injectors, maybe even with a BP motor. Though I have searched, and did not find much detailed information, I have avoided posting these kinds of questions on the Adaptronic board to help keep the discussion located here, in one place. So, that is why I asked the question before, here, in this thread, about using large injectors with the Adaptronic. Clearly that is fundamental to making this work with a larger turbo Miata.

3. For things like checking for corruption in firmware files or WARI versions, I for one am completely dependent on them. Other than reflashing firmware (using N right now) per the instructions, which I have done, with a standard RS232 port (no adapter) what else can I do? So I am glad they are looking for this.

4. Sorry if they are miffed. My intent here is not to get them upset, but to get some help. Again, if it is a tuning issue, I'll eat crow. I'll post a hundred and beg for forgiveness. Whatever. For example I admitted when I made a mistake, like when I found the vacuum leaks that were probably causing the high idle.
But clearly we have been trying hard to resolve this via tuning, and are still not there. I've checked grounds with a DMM, changed my battery, looked at my alternator, changed a fuel pump, checked connections, wiggled harnesses, tried changes with logs and posted them, in addition to what else is listed here, and am still not there yet. Electrically all my stuff is the same as it was with the MS, except for the obvious, like the adapter harness, and the wiring changes under the hood to accommodate the MAP sensor; All of those changes were soldered, checked for continuity, shrink-wrapped, and taped, cleanly.


Let's keep working and get this fixed. I want this Adaptronic to win. We bought it for good reasons, and have invested a lot of time so far. Travis I appreciate your efforts to date.

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 05-06-2009 at 02:54 PM.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2009, 02:24 AM   #255
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

So I have some bad new I suppose. Regardless of what I did to my 94', I could not replicate this problem. I donated significant cylinder wall, heat soaked the engine until I wasn't comfortable going farther, shut down, turn on. Everything I could possibly do, and nothing like this ever happened. Like I had said, I only had something similar to this once, and then never again.

I think this rules out the injectors as the problem. If there was some kind of incompatibility it would have showed up here.

The list...

I know some of this is repetitive but I think we have to start back at square one.

1.) Check the physical installation. Check groundwires and connections for anything that could be vibrating and causing an intermitten bad ground.

2.) Reset MAP sensor using a pump just so everyone is on the same page. A clean perfect install eleminates variables.

3.) Reflash the ECU.

4.) Send me your most current files I will send you fresh files with only your maps on them. This will preclude the wari data file being corrupt as a problem.

In this process of creating the new files I will be:

1.) Using the data Y8's posted up for all the maps. I'll be entering all that back in by hand.

2.) Checking everything under the engine settings again to make sure it is on task with other Miata ECU example files from adaptronic

Incase this does not work I will:

Be sending out a new ECU to verify it is not a problem with the ECU itself.

Sending out an email to everyone who has the NB miata adaptronic installed to see if any of them have similar problems.

Making a post on the Adaptronic Forums to see if there is any knowledge to be had there.

Busting my *** to fix this problem. I have not had alot of time up until this week to really concentrate on this and now I have another 30-40 hours a week I can dedicate solely to it. We will fix this stick with me, we'll get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
OK thanks Travis. I'll be happy to run through that checklist as soon as you send it out.

For the record:
1. This problem aside (other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?)... I have been happy with the Adaptronic. It otherwise seems to work well, as advertised. I can change the settings for the outputs, like the fans and the EBC open-loop table, and they work. And, the adaptive tuning for the fuel map is working. For example, I had to hand-trim the injector table after changing the voltage versus injector lag map. As a result, the AFRs were off in the upper cells, got a tad lean under boost, about 12.75:1. So I turned on adaptive tuning again, did a couple of pulls, and bam, the AFR is flat again, right at 12:1 all the way to red line; 12:1 is what I had the target AFR set for.

2. I know these guys have sold a lot of these units. That is why we need their help. For example, we cannot be the only ones trying to use RX7 550cc injectors, maybe even with a BP motor. Though I have searched, and did not find much detailed information, I have avoided posting these kinds of questions on the Adaptronic board to help keep the discussion located here, in one place. So, that is why I asked the question before, here, in this thread, about using large injectors with the Adaptronic. Clearly that is fundamental to making this work with a larger turbo Miata.

3. For things like checking for corruption in firmware files or WARI versions, I for one am completely dependent on them. Other than reflashing firmware (using N right now) per the instructions, which I have done, with a standard RS232 port (no adapter) what else can I do? So I am glad they are looking for this.

4. Sorry if they are miffed. My intent here is not to get them upset, but to get some help. Again, if it is a tuning issue, I'll eat crow. I'll post a hundred and beg for forgiveness. Whatever. For example I admitted when I made a mistake, like when I found the vacuum leaks that were probably causing the high idle.
But clearly we have been trying hard to resolve this via tuning, and are still not there. I've checked grounds with a DMM, changed my battery, looked at my alternator, changed a fuel pump, checked connections, wiggled harnesses, tried changes with logs and posted them, in addition to what else is listed here, and am still not there yet. Electrically all my stuff is the same as it was with the MS, except for the obvious, like the adapter harness, and the wiring changes under the hood to accommodate the MAP sensor; All of those changes were soldered, checked for continuity, shrink-wrapped, and taped, cleanly.


Let's keep working and get this fixed. I want this Adaptronic to win. We bought it for good reasons, and have invested a lot of time so far. Travis I appreciate your efforts to date.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2009, 11:32 AM   #256
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

cool. I hope you guys find the issue.

ZX, you should also verify the wiring of the harness just to rule out errors. Do you have the 99 wiring diagrams and the adaptronic wiring diagram? I know travis has the 99 plug in schematic somewhere.

I'm afraid I have to take a week off from dicking around with my car for a business trip to belgium. I picked up an LC1 with gauge to rule out my hackjob homebuilt wideband and give me some visual feedback on mixtures but I'm still not able to reliably start my car and it keeps raining cats and dogs and I have no garage (donate to my cause!). I went out last night to pull the wires for the LC1 and it was almost but not quite sprinkling. 5 minutes later it was pouring and I was inside throwing my rain-soaked jeans at my gf.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2009, 11:39 AM   #257
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

I thought about pulling out the harness to do that. I have been hesitating because it was really difficult to install that harness. In fact, if I pull it out, and it has problems. I'll be dang tempted to get rid of that board, reverse engineer the traces, and rewire it as a MS style harness like you are making. At the very least adding some length to the wires that run to the stock ECU connectors would help.

I did reach up under the dash and jiggle the harness a bit while the car was running to see if I could replicate the problem, thus checking for a loose or intermittent connection. Nothing happened.
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2009, 01:21 PM   #258
Elite Member
iTrader: (22)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sunny Spanish speaking Non US Caribbean
Posts: 3,257
Total Cats: 3
Default

Travis; I've been following this thread as best as I can and I'm starting to wonder whether all these issues may be related to the NB alternator?

I ask because you yourself haven't been able to replicate any of them in your car and yours is an NA.
Rafa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2009, 05:52 PM   #259
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: somewhere in NoVA
Posts: 550
Total Cats: -1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
Travis; I've been following this thread as best as I can and I'm starting to wonder whether all these issues may be related to the NB alternator?

I ask because you yourself haven't been able to replicate any of them in your car and yours is an NA.
Hmm, who all is running Adaptronic in an NB anyhow? I have yet to install mine.... just way too busy at work; but aren't there guys running NB installs without issue?

I'm getting nervous reading this thread... would have installed it last week had there not been problems with others'; but I figured that I would wait and see what the outcome is first. Can't afford to have my car DOA when I need it.

Y8S, you want to try using my adaptronic and rule out hardware?

Also, I was thinking... in my facility I have an envrionmental chamber and vacuum chamber for calibration / setup of our detectors.... maybe I should calibrate my sensors here in the chambers and let one of the guys having issues try them to see if it is a calibration issue? What do you all think?

Cheers,
Prospero
Prospero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2009, 05:56 PM   #260
Elite Member
iTrader: (46)
 
Stein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,812
Total Cats: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero View Post
Hmm, who all is running Adaptronic in an NB anyhow? I have yet to install mine.... just way too busy at work; but aren't there guys running NB installs without issue?
Travis made a comment earlier that I didn't catch. He said that we were the only ones having this problem. I wasn't aware of any NB's running in the US that were problem free. Actually, I thought that the only ones running it were here on this board. Maybe he meant that the US is the only one with this problem.
Stein is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 59 12-15-2017 09:00 PM
Momo Supercup seat jpreston Miata parts for sale/trade 2 05-17-2016 01:51 AM
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
Time to start learning and play with tuning The Gleas MEGAsquirt 3 10-01-2015 10:30 AM
Got bad Crank Angle Sensor and Random Misfire codes, but runs fine. Greasyman General Miata Chat 2 09-28-2015 11:44 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:55 PM.