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Old 10-16-2012, 04:01 PM   #241
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“We are leaving in 2014, period, and in the process, we’re going to be saving over the next 10 years another $800 billion,” - Biden


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Despite statements by Vice President Joe Biden, the State Department is about to begin formal negotiations over the extension of U.S. troops past 2014, a top State Department official said Tuesday.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:26 PM   #242
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The best way to deal with education is to move to a charter school type format. They have proven time and time again that these school produce results in even the most challenged demographics.

You cannot manage the challenges that different areas face in education from a central authority. You need to give individual schools the room to experiement with how they teach. This often times inspires teachers to try harder and keep their passion instead of getting sucked dry by the extensive rule set and retarded curiculum that they have to follow now while it is all managed by an administration that has no clue wtf is going on.
Doesn't take a charter school to do that. But it does take getting conservatives out of control of dictating the public education system.

I don’t have kids but I do not mind my property taxes going to public education. I will fight like crazy to keep my tax dollars from going to vouchers to send kids to private for profit schools however.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:30 PM   #243
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:41 PM   #244
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So Bundy, what exactly is wrong with a school being for profit if they are producing students that perform at a high level? I am assuming you don't want your tax dollars going to these schools because you see it as forcing your money to buy their product or something along those lines.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:55 PM   #245
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So Bundy, what exactly is wrong with a school being for profit if they are producing students that perform at a high level? I am assuming you don't want your tax dollars going to these schools because you see it as forcing your money to buy their product or something along those lines.
I am being forced to pay for their product and I personally cannot choose to go to a competitor, nothing free market about it even with my mandated tax payment for it going partially for private profit. I think Charter schools will chose to locate continently to attract mostly the best prospects for easy to teach students such as near communities where the kids with well off and educated parents likely to be involved with their Kids lives. Money will be reduced in other areas for the lower performing schools. Opportunity spread even more unevenly than it naturally is.

Charter schools are Just a Stupid Idea for “Public Education”

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Old 10-16-2012, 09:08 PM   #246
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You do realize that many charter schools have large underprivileged populations and these students perform equally or above their peers. Granted, you could argue that those underprivileged students are those with parents who understand the value of education and take an active roll in their child's life. However, there is no data to back up this claim at this time.

I believe charter schools would be a solution that would have to take over quickly and on a large scale to work correctly in order to not drain public schools of funding. This could be accomplished by closing public schools in an area with a certain number of charter schools within a given proximity.

Charter schools tend to save money because families are given a fixed amount of money per student that is generally lower than what the public school system pays to serve a student. They also force schools to compete on price while maintaining quality.

Parents would be forced to take an active roll in their child's education at least to the extent of choosing the school that their child will attend. This is where the "free market" aspect of it comes in. Schools will quickly build reputations and some will be weeded out.

You can always look at it as your tax dollars going to a corporation without your consent but this already happens in every aspect of govt. (i.e. defense contracting, consulting, etc.) The private sector is just going to be more efficient at delivering certain good and services so why fight it?

You can have you opinion, but you have not offered any real evidence that suggests it is a bad idea. You just talk about what "could" happen.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:12 PM   #247
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I dont know why we need education reform. We spend more today on schools than ever, we have the largest teachers unions than ever. We pump out the smartest children in the world...the proof is in the progressive pudding. Even I know not to mess with a good thing, we've come a long way since 1917.


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In the last three years, schools across the nation received $1.6 billion dollars in School Improvement Grants (SIG) from the U.S. Department of Education to improve student performance. An evaluation of the program in the state of Washington has revealed the program resulted in little to no improvement. Washington public schools will use $7.3 million from the program in 2012 and have gathered over $60 million in the past three years.

A report by the Center on Reinventing Public Education found most Washington schools receiving SIGs made only marginal changes. Not one of the schools outpaced the state average in reading and math standardized tests. “[T]he majority of schools studied show little evidence of the type of bold and transformative changes the SIGs were intended to produce,” the report states. One district SIG director interviewed about the program asked the researchers “how to successfully turn around a failing school…He went on to explain that he was at a loss as to how to do this.”

The district and its schools tried to implement change, but failed at many stages. Communication between the district and schools was cited as “confusing and incomplete.” District officials did not establish clear policies to assist schools with policy questions. Similarly, individual schools did not receive enough autonomy from the district to enact the most effective changes.

In many cases, changes implemented with the grant were questionable from the start. For example, three schools used a combined $5.8 million in grant money to slightly extend the school day and add administrative staff. Other schools paid for extra gym and art teachers, consultants, and intramural sports classes.

Washington state principals called into question the need for the grant to implement the changes. “The principals were glad to have the money,” the SIG researchers wrote, “but said that the work could be done without it.” Successful schools noted the administrative flexibility provided by the grant, not the funding, was the most important part of the program.

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Old 10-16-2012, 09:23 PM   #248
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Bob you're not even arguing against real charter school proposals. You've been fed scary stories.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:37 AM   #249
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Bob you're not even arguing against real charter school proposals. You've been fed scary stories.
There is still no good reason why public schools should not be able to do all the types of things that work in charter schools. And I have always thought teaching to standardized test was a failed Idea. I have somewhat of a unique personal perspective in that The last 5 years of my path through the public school system every year was spent in a different school in a different state in a different region of the country. I went to rural very small schools mid-size town schools suburban schools and large city schools. Some places I went it was like they were two grades behind. There was a correlation however I drew from that experience. The more conservative and the more evangelical the community around the school was the worse the school was. They were more concerned with teaching conformity brainwashed expected responses to every situation and every question than they were to opening up a child’s mind to think with a logical thought process and discover and learn on their own.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #250
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I dont know why we need education reform. We spend more today on schools than ever, we have the largest teachers unions than ever. We pump out the smartest children in the world...the proof is in the progressive pudding. Even I know not to mess with a good thing, we've come a long way since 1917.
Lmao. Ask a teacher how much money they get alotted to spend on their classroom each year, how much they actually spend out of their own post-tax income, and how much of that is actually deductible / recovered in the current tax code. On average around here, those numbers are $1-300, $1500-2500, and $250-$500.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:53 AM   #251
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The reason the same things can't be done in public schools as in charter schools is because each charter school is completely independent. Public schools do not currently and never will enjoy this luxury. Public institutions are always weighed down by a central authority and specific guidelines that are slow to evolve with changes in society. This is just an inherent flaw in govt. agencies. If you think you can reverse this problem, especially anytime soon you are sadly mistaken.

The only way to address the education issue is to change the structure providing it. Teacher's unions have far too much power in the public system and are far too resistant to real change. The best way to deal with this is to hand it over to charter schools in which the unions are not already entrenched.

Many studies have shown that teachers in charter schools tend to excel due to the enhanced freedom and accountability they encounter. It has also been shown that when teachers do not have to contribute dues out of their pay check they often choose not to and union membership suffers immensely. Too bad the unions are very successful at fighting these measures all over the country in order to protect their power and influence.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:37 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by braineack
[...] We spend more today on schools than ever, we have the largest teachers unions than ever[...]
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Lmao. Ask a teacher how much money they get alotted to spend on their classroom each year, how much they actually spend out of their own post-tax income, and how much of that is actually deductible / recovered in the current tax code.
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Some places I went it was like they were two grades behind.
In my own limited research in to the challenges with the education system, the main thing I took away is that it is a mistake to paint with too broad a brush.

Many teachers unions are obstructionist and heavy-handed, but a number of them are very cooperative and really do want to find the right balance of helping their members and their communities.

Many schools have spending trends that are not supported by performance but it is not always in the way that many of us (myself, Braineack, et al) might think. That is, while many areas do continue to spend more and more without seeing positive results, others have seen spending stagnant or growth slowed while still improving.

Many teachers probably are not paid enough for the work they do - while a number are probably paid way too much and/or would have been fired if they worked in any other private sector job that didn't have seniority protection.

Last edited by Scrappy Jack; 10-17-2012 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Whoops; not a picture thread.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:28 PM   #253
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Mitts views on blind trust have changed at least what he wants you to believe now. Keep in mind he still owns the majority of Bain in his blind trust. Google Sensata, the day before the election they are moving a profitable High tech manufacturing plant to China from Illinois. And in the second debate Romney stated in his economic plan he wants to make it so companies like that can Repatriate the profits without paying any tax. Imagine that, Paying no workers who are paying into social security, medicare, or income tax the US and no tax on corporate or executive profits either. Score one for the Plutocrats against all those with their head up there *** not paying attention to reality. Romney makes $450,000 a week from his blind trust which is mostly Bain.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:47 PM   #254
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It is funny that you act like the concept of repatriating profits at no additional tax is a new concept that is not already practiced in most other countries globally, including many that follow your ideals. This is a good thing because otherwise these companies leave billions of dollars over seas in order to avoid paying taxes on this money which is exactly what would happen if they brought it back. So you do what every other country does and let the money back into the country tax free so the companies can then reinvest it into the US economy.

You also act as if moving factories overseas is something that is negative and not just part of efficiency in the market. Highly developed countries with high and rising incomes tend to move away from traditional manufacturing jobs and into a service based economies because factory workers cannot be highly paid. Stop living in the 50's and 60's and come into the 21st century bundy.

EDIT: I also enjoy how every time someone tells you why your argument is wrong you just change the subject. Misdirection only works with those who don't know any better. Try actually picking a viewpoint you can legitimately defend.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #255
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It is funny that you act like the concept of repatriating profits at no additional tax is a new concept that is not already practiced in most other countries globally, including many that follow your ideals. This is a good thing because otherwise these companies leave billions of dollars over seas in order to avoid paying taxes on this money which is exactly what would happen if they brought it back. So you do what every other country does and let the money back into the country tax free so the companies can then reinvest it into the US economy.

You also act as if moving factories overseas is something that is negative and not just part of efficiency in the market. Highly developed countries with high and rising incomes tend to move away from traditional manufacturing jobs and into a service based economies because factory workers cannot be highly paid. Stop living in the 50's and 60's and come into the 21st century bundy.

EDIT: I also enjoy how every time someone tells you why your argument is wrong you just change the subject. Misdirection only works with those who don't know any better. Try actually picking a viewpoint you can legitimately defend.
Id rather live in the 50's and 60's than the 30's where the Plutocrats seem to want to take this country.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:04 PM   #256
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Id rather live in the 50's and 60's than the 30's where the Plutocrats seem to want to take this country.
Great content in that rebuttal.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:07 PM   #257
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The 50's and 60's? There were MASSIVE tax loopholes. It's been shown that there was huge difference between the nominally high tax rates in the 50's and 60's and the effective tax rates that were paid after all the loopholes.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:09 PM   #258
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I chose those timrs because those are the decades bundy likes to reference as the good times.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:25 PM   #259
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I chose those timrs because those are the decades bundy likes to reference as the good times.
The evidence I have been mulling over shows we are repeating roughly a 100 year cycle. Look at the philosophies presidents and congress during Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, and Herbert Hoover which managed to disrupt the balance of Income and opportunity so bad it took an extremely painful period of recovery.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:29 PM   #260
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The 50's and 60's? There were MASSIVE tax loopholes. It's been shown that there was huge difference between the nominally high tax rates in the 50's and 60's and the effective tax rates that were paid after all the loopholes.
Reality might contradict what you have been conditioned to believe. Based on actual IRS tax return info.
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