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Old 10-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by mgtmse01 View Post
are you meaning those are the only ideologies put in place or that those are the only ideologies pointed at by the opposition? i dont know of any ideology libertarians hold that can be considered fascist by its definition.



if a libertarian ever gets in office, i have to say they would find it hard to implement much since it would mean making big cuts and no one will want to stop suckling from the cash cow, that is unless he also held the majority in the house and senate which wont happen until the people had enough.
Where Libertarian and fascist Ideologies often align in areas of labor rights, deregulation allowing corporate interest to trample all over the health, safety and environmental resorces of the lower class working population, and limiting of economic opportunity of those not born to the right families.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:42 PM   #302
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Where Libertarian and fascist Ideologies often align in areas of labor rights, deregulation allowing corporate interest to trample all over the health, safety and environmental resorces of the lower class working population, and limiting of economic opportunity of those not born to the right families.
Libertarianism is the group of political philosophies that advocates minimizing coercion and emphasizes freedom, liberty, and voluntary association. Libertarians generally advocate a society with a small government compared to most present day societies.
There is no general consensus on the precise definition of libertarianism. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines libertarianism as the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things.

Libertarian party defines libertarianism as the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.

vs

Fascism (fśʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek to unify their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people through national identity.[3][4] The unity of the nation is to be based upon suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of the national community through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.
Fascism advocates a state-controlled and regulated mixed economy; the principal economic goal of fascism is to achieve autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence, through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[10] It promotes regulated private enterprise and private property contingent whenever beneficial to the nation and state enterprise and state property whenever necessary to protect its interests.[10] It supports criminalization of strikes by employees and lockouts by employers because it deems these acts as prejudicial and detrimental to the national community and therefore to society as an entirety.[11] Fascism promotes such economics as a "third position" alternative to capitalism and Marxism, as fascism declares both as being obsolete.

i respectfully disagree. the 2 definitions above are starkly different; fascism and libertarianism are not alike at all. if the market was truly free and competition was the norm rather than the rule then businesses would have to provide better services and goods to earn their money, for that, you need a professional, well trained workforce, slave labour would not cut it. why do you think crap made in china is so bad? for the most part it is substandard because those workers might as well be slaves. working like dogs to earn a miserable wage. china, as mittens pointed out, does not play fair. it can sell cheap stuff because they cheat.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:02 PM   #303
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If only there was some legislative body to which they belong that could set a federal budget?
no party will remove SS and medicaid. That's what a large portion of the tax redistribution is from.

That's honestly the nature of progressive taxes.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:19 PM   #304
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. china, as mittens pointed out, does not play fair. it can sell cheap stuff because they cheat.
Mittens will make money from sending jobs from and manufacturing from a profitable company here in the US the just the day before the election to make more profit. Look up Sensata. As stated in the second debate he also wants to make it so profits from that company can now be repatriated tax free. Big tax benefit to moving operations elsewhere.

Think about it somebody starts a business here and employs people they pay tax out the wazu they pay corporate tax at the full rate they pay their workers who have to pay social security and Medicare tax and because the money that the originator makes is not filtered through private equity turned to long term capital gains and that somebody pays the full tax rate on income rather than the preferred capital gains rate.

Romney wants to make it so private equity types, vulture capitalists, hedge fund managers who really add no value to our economy other than buy up the work of others such as he does never pay any tax. They are the parasites on our economy can you not see that?
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:16 AM   #305
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i respectfully disagree. the 2 definitions above are starkly different; fascism and libertarianism are not alike at all. if the market was truly free and competition was the norm rather than the rule then businesses would have to provide better services and goods to earn their money, for that, you need a professional, well trained workforce, slave labour would not cut it. why do you think crap made in china is so bad? for the most part it is substandard because those workers might as well be slaves. working like dogs to earn a miserable wage. china, as mittens pointed out, does not play fair. it can sell cheap stuff because they cheat.
For a better understanding of what fascism is I suggest you look up Laurence W. Britt and his 14 points of fascism. Even if you donít agree with his characterization. I am still of the belief that the Bonito Mussolini regime in Italy is the main example of Fascism. One if the core principals more so tha being totalitarian was the concept of corporatism or you might say a merger of state and corporate business interest.

Where people calming to be libertarian come into leadership in our political system you might typically see some reduction in government but the most prominent things I see as a result first is reduction in government mostly just where it will allow corporate interest to behave as bad citizens to maximize profit and second suppression of the power of labor. It comes out looking pretty fascist. An example might be Governor Scott Walker in Wisconsin.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:46 AM   #306
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tldr

but i could've met romney's wife today at a bbq restaurant. nbd ate at subway.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:05 AM   #307
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Mittens will make money from sending jobs from and manufacturing from a profitable company here in the US the just the day before the election to make more profit. Look up Sensata. As stated in the second debate he also wants to make it so profits from that company can now be repatriated tax free. Big tax benefit to moving operations elsewhere.
are you thinking i support mittens? because i do not. i simply pointed out that what he said about china cheating is most likely true. i am not an economist it simply makes sense to me the points the lp makes and other libertarians who are more savy than me. under a truly free market those backward incentives to send labour overseas would likely not exist.

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Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
Think about it somebody starts a business here and employs people they pay tax out the wazu they pay corporate tax at the full rate they pay their workers who have to pay social security and Medicare tax and because the money that the originator makes is not filtered through private equity turned to long term capital gains and that somebody pays the full tax rate on income rather than the preferred capital gains rate.
yes currently if you start a business here you would pay all the taxes you talk about, however with the abolition of the irs, the implementation of the fair tax none or most of the above would not apply and therefore it would not make sense to take your company or money elsewhere. not to mention a full free market would open many more doors for innovation, competition and more profitable businesses would be created.

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Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
Romney wants to make it so private equity types, vulture capitalists, hedge fund managers who really add no value to our economy other than buy up the work of others such as he does never pay any tax. They are the parasites on our economy can you not see that?
i think you are misreading my posts or i am not doing a good job of articulating my point, i do not support mittens, i support johnson. i'm in agreement with you to the extent that crony capitalism or, as you refer to them, vulture capitalists hurt our country. i believe the general public doesnt really understand that our marketplace is not truly free and that allows the big money to succeed and the rest to fail. its .gov picking winners and looses by legislation.
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:50 AM   #308
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One if the core principals more so tha being totalitarian was the concept of corporatism or you might say a merger of state and corporate business interest.
there are certainly many different types of people who call themselves libertarians, however, all the libertarians who i know do not believe in the merging of state and corporate business interest, that is definitely not libertarianism. just because someone wrongfully associates the two it does not mean they are the same. i have never heard or read that idea or belief being circulated within my circle of libertarians. hey...you can probably apply the term fascism to many things today. its fascist to take my money to pay for someone else's housing, food, medical, let them get a job! its fascist to tell me i can't do xyz with my life, stay out of it! see, fascism can be applied to a lot.
i will read on the lawrence britt ideas later on when i have time.

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Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
Where people calming to be libertarian come into leadership in our political system you might typically see some reduction in government but the most prominent things I see as a result first is reduction in government mostly just where it will allow corporate interest to behave as bad citizens to maximize profit and second suppression of the power of labour. It comes out looking pretty fascist. An example might be Governor Scott Walker in Wisconsin.
i do not know about scott walker or his time in wisconsin so i will not argue with you there. just like there are bad republicans and democrats there is sure to be some bad libertarians. i do not know the circumstances that caused him to make those decisions. i could argue that many liberal views are fascist! but my point here is not to insult your beliefs but to point out to those voters who are not pleased with the choices that are being presented for this election that there is a third choice.
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:45 AM   #309
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"I happen to be a proponent of a single-payer universal health care program"—Illinois state Sen. Barack Obama, June 2003.

"I have not said that I was a single-payer supporter"—President Obama, August 2009.


***

"Leadership means that the buck stops here. . . . I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit"—Sen. Barack Obama, March 2006.

"It is not acceptable for us not to raise the debt ceiling and to allow the U.S. government to default"—President Obama, July 2011.


***

"I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages"—Obama questionnaire response, 1996, while running for Illinois state Senate.

"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage"—Sen. Obama, November 2008, while running for president.

"It is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same-sex couples should be able to get married"—President Obama, May 2012.


***

"We have an idea for the trigger. . . . Sequestration"—Obama Office of Management and Budget Director Jack Lew in 2011, as reported in Bob Woodward's "The Price of Politics."

"First of all, the sequester is not something that I've proposed. It is something that Congress has proposed"—President Obama, October 2012.


***

"If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election"—Sen. Obama, 2007.

"We've made the decision not to participate in the public financing system for the general election"—Sen. Obama, June 2008.


***

"I will never question the patriotism of others in this campaign"—Sen. Obama, June 2008.

"The way Bush has done it over the last eight years is . . . [he] added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back. . . . That's irresponsible. It's unpatriotic"—Sen. Obama, July 2008.

"I don't remember what the number was precisely. . . . We don't have to worry about it short term"—President Obama, September 2012, on the debt figure when he took office ($10 trillion) and whether to worry about today's $16 trillion figure.


***

"[Sen. Hillary Clinton believes] that . . . if the government does not force taxpayers to buy health care, that we will penalize them in some fashion. I disagree with that"—Sen. Obama, Jan 2008, opposing the individual mandate for health insurance.

"I'm open to a system where every American bears responsibility for owning health insurance"—President Obama, June 2009, supporting the individual mandate.


***

"Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times when America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive"—President Obama, April 2009, in France.

"We have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms"—President Obama, April 2009, in Trinidad and Tobago.

"Nothing Governor Romney just said is true, starting with this notion of me apologizing"—Barack Obama, October 2012, on whether he went on a global apology tour.


***

"The problem with a spending freeze is you're using a hatchet where you need a scalpel"—Sen. Obama, September 2008.

"Starting in 2011, we are prepared to freeze government spending for three years"—President Obama, January 2010.


***

"So if somebody wants to build a coal-fired plant, they can, it's just that it will bankrupt them"—Sen. Obama, January 2008, on his plans to financially penalize coal plants.

"Now is the time to end this addiction, and to understand that drilling is a stop-gap measure, not a long-term solution"—Sen. Obama, August 2008.

"Here's what I've done since I've been president. We have increased oil production to the highest levels in 16 years. Natural gas production is the highest it's been in decades. We have seen increases in coal production and coal employment"—President Obama, October 2012.


***

"If I don't have this done in three years, then there's going to be a one-term proposition"—President Obama, 2009.

"We've got a long way to go but . . . we've come too far to turn back now. . . . And that's why I'm running for a second term"—President Obama, October 2012.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:03 AM   #310
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I just read that article in the WSJ too. I thought about posting it.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:20 AM   #311
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that's awesome flip-flopping action!
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:29 PM   #312
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I'll take flip flops that are over years old over flip flops that are every other day.
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Old 10-27-2012, 03:12 AM   #313
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lived in chicago when he worked there, i'll leave it at that that,

never said romney would create jobs, just said none had been created last 4 years,

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lived in chicago when he worked there, i'll leave it at that that,
not about flip flop, I was a union worker in chicago, just dont see a change,

[ the right families.[/QUOTE]

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Old 10-27-2012, 10:44 AM   #314
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I'll take flip flops that are over years old over flip flops that are every other day.
I think you meant to say evolutions.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:46 PM   #315
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I think you meant to say evolutions.
Works be me, everyone changes there view over the years. Not back and forth every day.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:54 AM   #316
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I do. especially about big important decisions. ask y8s or shueinds or brgracer.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:10 PM   #317
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I do. especially about big important decisions. ask y8s or shueinds or brgracer.
I see, Rmoney applies to your indecisive side. He will win on the fast that undecided votes can't make up there minds so they vote for the guy they can relate to.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:39 PM   #318
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The Democratic campaign is built solely on attacking the opponents. I expect an incumbent to be able to point to his or her record, and show what they've accomplished. Since Obama can't do that, they attack instead. I don't care if Romney sucks, I only know that Obama sucks worse and needs to go.

Double digit unemployment (if you don't accept the doctored numbers), huge deficits, more poeple on public assitance than ever before, and broken promises across the board. What more does it take to vote him out? Incumbents should all be voted out until they get back to governing and stop the continuouus campaign mode.
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Old 10-28-2012, 04:25 PM   #319
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Double digit unemployment (if you don't accept the doctored numbers), huge deficits, more poeple on public assitance than ever before, and broken promises across the board.
Not to dismiss the other problems, but why are huge deficits a problem?

That should not be something you base a vote on, in my opinion. The other stuff - sure.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:06 PM   #320
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Because it shows how badly the gov't is managing things. Any dipwad can run up debt. They need to stop spending so damn much. Make a budget and stick to it. You know, like everyone else has to.
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