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Old 09-19-2012, 04:10 AM   #121
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Im pretty sure Obama will be reelected.

Its cool though, while all the republicans are panicking in the streets due to the impending 1000 years of darkness, Ill be buying stock while its cheap. Then Ill make a killing when its back to normal in a month. It worked 4 years ago.

Ive said it before, and Ill say it again. If Obama is Lenin, then Romney is Stalin. The economic differences in policy between the 2 parties are so ******* close together that its not even funny. We've been living in a socialist country for longer than most of us have been alive, and unfortunately we have a really shitty ineffective version of socialism where we still pay stupid high taxes but get no benefits. Its all going towards bombs and into the pockets of bankers.
If you want to be mad at somebody you shoulnt be mad at Obama, hes just one politician in the pockets of a thousand lobbyist just like every other politician, trying to exert whatever small amount of fictitious public power he has.

You should be mad at Bernake, and Nixon, and the Fed in general.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:52 AM   #122
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So I don't know if Romney was just pandering to that particular crowd or if he really misunderstands the nuances of people that don't pay Federal income taxes. I think it's a mistake in thinking (and speaking) to say that all of them are definitely voting for Obama and to rule them out - and now potentially alienate them.

I bet a reasonable number of people that don't pay Federal income taxes are conservative, especially in the South where the majority of non-FIT filers live.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:13 AM   #123
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true story:

I put up shelves in my garage last night...My wife came out to check on my status, saw them, and said "you didnt build that."

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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
So I don't know if Romney was just pandering to that particular crowd or if he really misunderstands the nuances of people that don't pay Federal income taxes. I think it's a mistake in thinking (and speaking) to say that all of them are definitely voting for Obama and to rule them out - and now potentially alienate them.

he was, it was a private $50,000 a plate dinner.

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Im pretty sure Obama will be reelected.

Its cool though, while all the republicans are panicking in the streets due to the impending 1000 years of darkness, Ill be buying stock while its cheap. Then Ill make a killing when its back to normal in a month. It worked 4 years ago.
im sure he will too...and hten he'll have to deal with a republican majority in the house and senate...
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:31 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
So I don't know if Romney was just pandering to that particular crowd or if he really misunderstands the nuances of people that don't pay Federal income taxes. I think it's a mistake in thinking (and speaking) to say that all of them are definitely voting for Obama and to rule them out - and now potentially alienate them.

I bet a reasonable number of people that don't pay Federal income taxes are conservative, especially in the South where the majority of non-FIT filers live.
Most of the people that dont pay income taxes are children and retired people.

Unfortunately, saying stupid **** like that is what the majority of rebublicans want to hear from a candidate. They want to hear about all the freeloaders and dirty mexicans destroying our country.
Im sure while they listen to this they picture stereotypical hippies, smoking pot and collecting massive checks from the government. They boil with rage thinking about how hard they work at their union job at a factory producing goods that have their prices set by the government.

The difference between a democrat and republican politician is which lobbyist are sucking their dicks on any given day.
The rest is just meaningless **** they say to the public.
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:24 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Most of the people that dont pay income taxes are children and retired people.
[Emphasis added]

That may be technically true, but largely irrelevant to the discussion. No one is talking about children; they are talking about tax filers.

Only about 10% of tax filers paid $0 or less in Federal income tax and were elderly. About 7% didn't work (typically collecting unemployment or disability benefits).

About 28% of tax filers paid $0 or less in Federal income tax but did pay payroll taxes.

(~10% + ~7% + ~28% + rounding = 46%)

Of those that paid $0 or less in Federal income tax, the vast majority received very little in taxable income (~$33k per year or less for a household). For those people, state, local and payroll taxes typically took a larger percentage of their income while higher income earners lost a smaller percentage to those taxes but paid a much higher percentage of their income toward Federal income taxes.

In all, state and local taxes and payroll taxes are slightly regressive while Federal income taxes are significantly progressive. In total, the tax obligations are spread pretty evenly across the vast bulk of the income earners between ~25% - 30%.

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Old 09-19-2012, 02:26 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Most of the people that dont pay income taxes are children and retired people.

Unfortunately, saying stupid **** like that is what the majority of rebublicans want to hear from a candidate. They want to hear about all the freeloaders and dirty mexicans destroying our country.
Im sure while they listen to this they picture stereotypical hippies, smoking pot and collecting massive checks from the government. They boil with rage thinking about how hard they work at their union job at a factory producing goods that have their prices set by the government.

The difference between a democrat and republican politician is which lobbyist are sucking their dicks on any given day.
The rest is just meaningless **** they say to the public.
I suspect nearly 2/3rds of that 47% still have a higher percentage of their total income going to the federal government than does Mitt but it is in the form of Payroll taxes paid on income from actually working rather than income taxes paid on income. It is really I think down around 18% that have no tax liability to the federal government. some very poor, disabled, retired, elderly, and likely some financial hedge fund managing tax avoiding fat and healthy economic blood sucking leaches like Mitt.

It is hard to say though because Mitt doesnít want you to know how he might have got out of paying taxes for many years.

Bob
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:28 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
It is hard to say though because Mitt doesn’t want you to know how he might have got out of paying taxes for many years.

Bob

How many other presidential candidates release their tax records or are pressured to?
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:52 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
[Emphasis added]

That may be technically true, but largely irrelevant to the discussion. No one is talking about children; they are talking about tax filers.

Only about 10% of tax filers paid $0 or less in Federal income tax and were elderly. About 7% didn't work (typically collecting unemployment or disability benefits).

About 28% of tax filers paid $0 or less in Federal income tax but did pay payroll taxes.

(~10% + ~7% + ~28% + rounding = 46%)

Of those that paid $0 or less in Federal income tax, the vast majority received very little in taxable income (~$33k per year or less for a household). For those people, state, local and payroll taxes typically took a larger percentage of their income while higher income earners lost a smaller percentage to those taxes but paid a much higher percentage of their income toward Federal income taxes.

In all, state and local taxes and payroll taxes are slightly regressive while Federal income taxes are significantly progressive. In total, the tax obligations are spread pretty evenly across the vast bulk of the income earners between ~25% - 30%.

Dam a chart that shows the picture more clearly. Also shows closely what I calculate that I pay in total to the federal government which has been between 25 and 30%. Double income no kids I think gets hit a little harder than the average in my income range.

I also like the little sliver in there that is not labeled for people that donít pay income or payroll taxes. It would not surprise me at all if that sliver includes guys like Mitt Romney for those years for which he will not provide his tax returns.

Bob
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:21 PM   #129
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Bob, can you email me your tax returns please? No big deal right?









Obama: 'I ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN REDISTRIBUTION'...
Romney: 'We believe in free people and free enterprise, not redistribution'...'I'll deliver recovery, not dependency'...


Polsei on the American Dream: 'work hard, play by the rules, and take responsibility'
Polsei on OBAMACARE: 'a bill that says to someone, if you want to be creative and be a musician or whatever, you can leave your work, focus on your talent, your skill, your passion, your aspirations because you will have health care.'

don't wrory polsei, they dont have to quit, they all got fired.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:25 PM   #130
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Brain, if you really want to set your standard on a video of Obama 14 years ago, just wait until you hear HALF the **** Romney said 14 years ago...
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:29 PM   #131
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his position on redistribution has not evolved (I could use the "Joe the Plumber" quote instead).


nor has mine, on anything; when i post this crap, it pleases me--that's all i care about.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #132
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My bad. You give no *****, as you told me before. Mfw
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #133
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like I dont acutally think I'm convincing anyone when I post this crap. That's why I barely engage in real arguments in this section as well... I just say dumb things, think im clever, and count all the money in my wallet.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:28 PM   #134
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Right on. I just have to think as the right-wing version of reddit.com/r/politics.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:55 PM   #135
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One guy is willing to dabble with some redistribution by going back to a tax structure that had been quite successful in past decades in promoting the greatness of the nation and was a part of the nation becoming one of the greatest economies producing the greatest leaps forward in technology, standard of living, and opportunity for citizens.

The other guy just wants to continue further down the trend to give to those that are taking most of the profit from American productivity growth while contributing nothing more than owning everything and to do this without actually having the revenue to pay for it in a plan that is even more fiscally irresponsible than what has already brought us to the edge of the financial cliff.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:22 PM   #136
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the greatness of this nation was all pre-1913.

Romney is just another democrat cira ten years ago.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:55 PM   #137
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One guy is willing to dabble with some redistribution by going back to a tax structure that had been quite successful in past decades in promoting the greatness of the nation and was a part of the nation becoming one of the greatest economies producing the greatest leaps forward in technology, standard of living, and opportunity for citizens.
Fun fact: Clinton, the Republican Congress and their Federal government balanced budget/surplus coincided with the first private sector deficit in decades [possibly in US history, I need to check on that] and was a big part of the foundation of the great financial crisis of the late 2000s*.


* Later made worse by a number of different variables
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:08 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Fun fact: Clinton, the Republican Congress and their Federal government balanced budget/surplus coincided with the first private sector deficit in decades [possibly in US history, I need to check on that] and was a big part of the foundation of the great financial crisis of the late 2000s*.


* Later made worse by a number of different variables
I think going from a tax structure that overall resulted in a fairly flat slightly progressive tax system somewhat independent on income source that might favor entrepreneurs a little to a tax structure that greatly favored the guys buying up business often just to run up the debt and pilfer all the value out often with other peopleís money and favored the guys making up financial derivatives and other magic financial paper schemes had a lot to do with the mess.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:13 AM   #139
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Bob, can I please get a copy of your credit card statements for the last ten years?
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:47 PM   #140
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I think going from a tax structure that overall resulted in a fairly flat slightly progressive tax system somewhat independent on income source that might favor entrepreneurs a little to a tax structure that greatly favored the guys buying up business often just to run up the debt and pilfer all the value out often with other peopleís money and favored the guys making up financial derivatives and other magic financial paper schemes had a lot to do with the mess.

Bob -

A) I am confident but not sure that was the longest single sentence written on MT.net at 81 words and 385 characters without spaces (465 with).

B) How are you quantifying or defining your definition of Clinton/Republican Congress era taxation as "a fairly flat slightly progressive tax system somewhat independent on income source that might favor entrepreneurs a little?"

Look at that graphic above. 6 of the 8 income groups paid between 25 and 30% of their gross income in total taxes, with a generally slightly progressive bias. It's a lot flatter than I expected it to be, honestly.

There is only a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of tax filers that might fit the "Romney mold" (retired, amassed a large fortune and now lives off of the tax-favored income and dividends or successful mega hedge fund manager).
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