Redline Time Attack/Super Lap Battle rebuild thread - Page 29 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Media Got any pics or vids to share?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-16-2009, 09:17 PM   #561
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Austin, TX yall
Posts: 849
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
There is an E85 station about 5 miles from where I work, but it is on an Air Force Base and thus I think I cannot use it. Dang it. The next closest one is too far to be practical.
There's two very close to H2R...

Chris
Miatamaniac92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 10:33 PM   #562
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,366
Total Cats: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
There is an E85 station about 5 miles from where I work, but it is on an Air Force Base and thus I think I cannot use it. Dang it. The next closest one is too far to be practical.
"What drove you to enlist? Patriotism? Desire to help your country in a time of need? Wanted to pay for college or learn a new career?"


"....no, I wanted access to the E85 pumps on the base."

Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2009, 11:39 PM   #563
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,523
Total Cats: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
I am also running richer than required. 11.9 - 12.3 AFR. E85 can tolerate up to 13.
You are saying 13 when read from a wbo2 gauge calibrated for gas, important distinction needing clarification if anyone reads this. More accurate would be to call this .884 lambda, or ~8.6:1 real afr of E85. In my research, .86 lambda is max power lean for E85, .71 for max power rich. So 13 on a gas wb02, .884 lambda is, if you believe what's written out there, a little lean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
.... 10% more fuel at light load, and 30% more at WOT.
...
I am running 550c injectors, and made 232whp on Kraftwerk's dyno (same dyno Savington ran). so may be 750cc injector for 300whp ? I also pulled a bunch of timing (kind of negate E85's advantage), because we were worried that it is too much on my stock motor.
I spoke with Emilio a little about E85, and actually wanted to talk to you about it since, because I knew you were using it. Good timing. Copy/pasted from an email I wrote to Emilio at that time regarding fueling:
Injector sizing, from RC Fuel Injection I used the injector worksheet at the bottom of the page. Interestingly, RC doesn't specify what fuel you are calculating for, so I assumed it was gas and made adjustments to the bhp field to account for the difference between e85/gas. 300whp X 1.15 (15% drivetrain loss) X 1.4 (a conservative 40% more req fuel for e85 vs gas) = 483bhp. Other contants: .65 BSFC, 80% duty cycle, 60 psig base fuel, 4 injectors=878 cc/min. BTW, I will probably be using a Bosch 1000cc, highly recommended by my tuner.

From this, bumping up the base fuel pressure to 75, a less conservative 30% more req fuel for e85, driving the duty cycle up a little, may get away with a 750 to make 300 wheel. I already have one set of too small injectors to find new homes for, I don't want that to happen again. Considering the 1000s are reported to idle well, I think this may be a reasonable choice.

Bellwilliam, I'd be very interested in what your base fuel pressure is, and what your injector duty cycles were at the big end of your 232whp dyno run on those 550s. And by the way, is your fuel consumption gross on the track.

Thanks for the input.
webby459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 12:31 AM   #564
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
"What drove you to enlist? Patriotism? Desire to help your country in a time of need? Wanted to pay for college or learn a new career?"


"....no, I wanted access to the E85 pumps on the base."

HA!
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 12:33 AM   #565
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,889
Total Cats: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
There's two very close to H2R...

Chris
Good to know. That would work for track days, but not for a daily commuter. The track car is an LS1 so I don't need E85 for that, at least not until I turbocharge it
ZX-Tex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 12:45 AM   #566
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,366
Total Cats: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
Bellwilliam, I'd be very interested in what your base fuel pressure is, and what your injector duty cycles were at the big end of your 232whp dyno run on those 550s. And by the way, is your fuel consumption gross on the track.

Thanks for the input.

Will is seeing around 90% DC from RC550s at 60psi base pressure. That was at 240whp (260whp on Church's dyno).

Will, what were the percentages when the car made 280 on Church's dyno?

If I have to buy injectors again, I'm not stopping at 1000ccs - I'll look for a 1200-1600cc injector. To hell with the idle.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 01:15 AM   #567
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Posts: 620
Total Cats: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
If I have to buy injectors again, I'm not stopping at 1000ccs - I'll look for a 1200-1600cc injector. To hell with the idle.
Race cars don't idle at 750rpm...
Rennkafer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 03:49 AM   #568
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKav View Post
When you say wideband, are you referring to a 'non-resonant' sensor like the modern-day Bosch stuff?
Yes.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 01:58 PM   #569
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Will is seeing around 90% DC from RC550s at 60psi base pressure. That was at 240whp (260whp on Church's dyno).

Will, what were the percentages when the car made 280 on Church's dyno?
is that a trick question it never made 280 on Church's dyno. it made 260.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 12-17-2009 at 02:19 PM.
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009, 02:12 PM   #570
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 387
Total Cats: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
You are saying 13 when read from a wbo2 gauge calibrated for gas, important distinction needing clarification if anyone reads this. More accurate would be to call this .884 lambda, or ~8.6:1 real afr of E85. In my research, .86 lambda is max power lean for E85, .71 for max power rich. So 13 on a gas wb02, .884 lambda is, if you believe what's written out there, a little lean.

I spoke with Emilio a little about E85, and actually wanted to talk to you about it since, because I knew you were using it. Good timing. Copy/pasted from an email I wrote to Emilio at that time regarding fueling:
Injector sizing, from RC Fuel Injection I used the injector worksheet at the bottom of the page. Interestingly, RC doesn't specify what fuel you are calculating for, so I assumed it was gas and made adjustments to the bhp field to account for the difference between e85/gas. 300whp X 1.15 (15% drivetrain loss) X 1.4 (a conservative 40% more req fuel for e85 vs gas) = 483bhp. Other contants: .65 BSFC, 80% duty cycle, 60 psig base fuel, 4 injectors=878 cc/min. BTW, I will probably be using a Bosch 1000cc, highly recommended by my tuner.

From this, bumping up the base fuel pressure to 75, a less conservative 30% more req fuel for e85, driving the duty cycle up a little, may get away with a 750 to make 300 wheel. I already have one set of too small injectors to find new homes for, I don't want that to happen again. Considering the 1000s are reported to idle well, I think this may be a reasonable choice.

Bellwilliam, I'd be very interested in what your base fuel pressure is, and what your injector duty cycles were at the big end of your 232whp dyno run on those 550s. And by the way, is your fuel consumption gross on the track.

Thanks for the input.
60psi FP. it was 90% DC on the dyno. but we've leaned it out since then. it was running a bit rich before, engine was running too cool (if there is such a thing) from E85 and Rotrex. funny thing was I accidentally loaded a gas fuel map, and other than puffed a lots of black smoke from running rich (high 10s), it made almost the same power (5whp lower) as leaner setup. I guess E85 just don't care.
I will test it to see what mpg is this weekend at Buttonwillow. I believe I was getting ~6mpg at AAA Speeway (don't have a working speedometer), a lots of WOT on that track. I am guessing around 7mpg elsewhere.

don't forget on E85, you are running ~1 point leaner.

I am sure you are right about the lambda. I am currently at 12, which is 0.816 lamda. hopefully that would be good. it is strange that 0.71 (10.44) lambda for max power rich, as it was making a ton of smoke at anything in low 11s (0.76) .I also have a lot of timing pulled (~15 at max peak tq). EGT peaked at 900F on the dyno, 1,200F at AAA Speedway.

I just did a dyno pull at Kraftwerks 2 days ago. it is now only 232whp. if I pull the restrictor out, add a bigger injector (750cc ?), it looks like it will go to ~280-290whp on that dyno (before it goes kaboom on my stock block).
KraftWerks Rotrex Race kit prototype on E85 - MX-5 Miata Forum

excuse me if I don't make some technical sense, I am just learning it all.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 12-17-2009 at 02:27 PM.
bellwilliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 03:40 PM   #571
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 42
Total Cats: 0
Default

Wow, this thread is a wealth of information! I'm new to Miata's and this really helps my decision process on to turbo vs not to turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Will is seeing around 90% DC from RC550s at 60psi base pressure. That was at 240whp (260whp on Church's dyno).

Will, what were the percentages when the car made 280 on Church's dyno?

If I have to buy injectors again, I'm not stopping at 1000ccs - I'll look for a 1200-1600cc injector. To hell with the idle.
If you are really serious about controlling your fuel delivery, talk to Tony at T1 about Racing Dynamics Bosch Injectors.

Fuel Injectors

You will not find a better performing and matched injector.

The 2200's are pretty huge, but you can run the 1000's at much higher base pressures than you may think. Tony told me that he has run them in 1000+ whp Supra's at 90psi base pressures. Obviously they are running giant fuel pumps, but you get the idea. The ID Bosch injectors love pressure.

Not sure if it was you that was talking about the Walbro 255, but skip it and go straight to a Bosch 044, especially when e85 comes in the mix. The Wally's have questionable resilience to e85 and the Bosch will out flow it and run higher pressures more reliably. It's better in every aspect.

You're peak timing under boost is insane, even with water/meth injection. You really need to dial it down and turn up the boost to compensate. You can make a lot of power safely with more boost and less timing. Timing kills motors much sooner than boost does.
I am Jack's NA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 04:15 PM   #572
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Tony Palo wouldn't tune my car or even let it on his dyno, lol.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 04:29 PM   #573
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,923
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Tony Palo wouldn't tune my car or even let it on his dyno, lol.
Please do explain, sounds like a good story.
JayL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 04:34 PM   #574
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayL View Post
Please do explain, sounds like a good story.
Unfortunately its not. I called him up to see if he'd tune it and tried to sell me $8k in Motec and then told me the car would burst into flames, told me I didn't need a steady state dyno, and then told me how great he was at tuning and that I was wasting his time.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1994 Spec Miata Race Car SM/SM2/SSM For Sale Quinn Cars for sale/trade 6 10-23-2016 08:58 AM
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
WTB MP62 (Hotside) (NB2) Rick02R WTB 3 01-03-2016 08:18 PM
Bad head gasket or ? shooterschmidty Engine Performance 8 09-30-2015 11:28 PM


Tags
build, redline time attack

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:44 AM.