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Old 11-17-2009, 05:19 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by GIGAPUNK View Post
Crazy! Even with WI this sounds a little like ragged edge tuning?
^^ My first reaction too. I've become accustomed to Evo tuning, and Sav's 20deg at 23psi is pretty much unheard of in that world. Evos run low single digit advance at peak torque at that boost level... fwiw.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:45 PM   #442
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Crazy! Even with WI this sounds a little like ragged edge tuning?

Here's what I've been running lately. Stock 95 long block at 18.4 psi from an intercooled whipple s/c on 93 octane.



I know that I'm running half a point more compression, and 7 less octane rating, but... It's as aggressive as I've been able to go. Any more and I get hints of detonation. I'd like my motor to live a little longer so that's where it stays. Once I get a built motor together, though I hope it takes the timing that you're using.

I know that the 6.2 degrees of advance I'm running at 220 kpa sounds unusual, but you've got to do whatever it takes to make sure that detonation is at bay. Cuz God knows we don't want to turn down the boost!
comparing a whipple on a 9:1 motor to a big-turbo'd 8.6:1 Is like comparing apples to AIDS.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:48 PM   #443
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^^ My first reaction too. I've become accustomed to Evo tuning, and Sav's 20deg at 23psi is pretty much unheard of in that world. Evos run low single digit advance at peak torque at that boost level... fwiw.
He ran my spark table up to 230kpa...then its all him...

What are the chances that we have detonation occurring and can't hear it even through det-cans? He and I both like to tune for MBT, then drop 2*. Should we drop more?

Aren't the Evo motors running turbos which are somewhat enormous in comparison to the pea-shooters we run?

Vs. Sav's baby turbonator:

My pea-shooter:

Last edited by hustler; 11-17-2009 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:59 PM   #444
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He ran my spark table up to 230kpa...then its all him...

What are the chances that we have detonation occurring and can't hear it even through det-cans?
I won't claim to be a det expert since I'm partly deaf in one ear but considering Sav's motor let go due to det, I'd say that's a possibility, barring other factors like excessively high IATs, janky WI, dodgy fuel delivery, etc.

In the known absence of any det, the 2-deg off MBT approach is solid.

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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Aren't the Evo motors running turbos which are somewhat enormous in comparison to the pea-shooters we run?
Stock Evo turbos are very similar size-wise to Sav's 2871. IIRC an Evo comp wheel is 68mm. I think.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:10 PM   #445
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In the known absence of any det, the 2-deg off MBT approach is solid.
Cool. I should probably note that I have absurd spark numbers in my table so Savinton and I came up with similar numbers at 15psi and less, so they spark numbers seemed reasonable considering we both came up with the same figures independant from each other.

at 11.5psi, I'm running 30* advance at 3800-4800rpm or so, and no less than 28 in that row. AT 15psi I'm running roughly 4* less across the row.

It defies logic of those who came before me, but it makes no det that I can hear and I've survived a few hours of seat time.

Thanks for chiming in with the stories of triumph and turbo folly.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:16 PM   #446
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Do you guys run knock sensors? Back in the day, they were utter tripe but nowadays they're much improved... so much so that I wouldn't think of not running one. I mean, on a real car, not a joke car like my lemon.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:32 PM   #447
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Do you guys run knock sensors? Back in the day, they were utter tripe but nowadays they're much improved... so much so that I wouldn't think of not running one. I mean, on a real car, not a joke car like my lemon.
We have "knocksense" for MegaSquirt but I can't get enough resolution on it to "tune" the thing properly. It either goes off constantly when driving, or I make a miniscule adjustment and can whack the block with a hammer and it will NOT activate. I may need to do the potentiometer mod to make it work properly because I'm scared and its cold out here and need someone to hold me.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:44 PM   #448
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Sav your car is ******* groin strainingly fantastic. Its car **** of the highest caliber. Ive been scanning every last picture for details I can take away as useful and the more I look the more astounded I become. Can I (and probably we) get some real photos of it in the current form? Dash, interior, engine bay, underneath. Its just fricking awesome.

Sorry about the det but maybe have the pistons checked over for metal failure just incase you got a bad set
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:24 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by JKav View Post
I won't claim to be a det expert since I'm partly deaf in one ear but considering Sav's motor let go due to det, I'd say that's a possibility, barring other factors like excessively high IATs, janky WI, dodgy fuel delivery, etc.
But what caused the det? Is it feasible that I can tune to have such severe detonation in cylinder 3 as to cause this problem, and yet cylinders 1 and 4 are literally picture perfect?

On a scale of 1-10:
Cyl1: 1
Cyl2: 3
Cyl3: 11
Cyl4: 1

The WI is a Devil's Own Basic kit. 3gph nozzle, pressure switch firing at 6psi. Not used as a power adder, just as a safety buffer. Fuel is normally Sunoco 100, but I think I ended up with 5 gallons of 98 in the tank this weekend. Fuel delivery is a set of RC750s through a stock '99 fuel rail, stock '94 FPR with a Walbro 255lph pump.

Excessively high IATs are probably a contributing factor, caused by the blown IC coupler we had on Saturday. I am wondering whether there's a problem with the #3 injector, though.

There are so few people running 20+psi on these motors, but I tried to stay on the conservative side when I tuned it on Saturday evening. I tried 21 degrees at 250kpa, and only saw a 2 or 3whp bump, so I promptly turned it back down to 19. I'm using Trey's spark map to 230kpa (the only differences between our setups is I have an additional 20cc of displacement and a 2871R vs his 2860RS), and he runs his map up to 18psi on 94 octane and no water injection without a problem.
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:51 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
But what caused the det?

I am wondering whether there's a problem with the #3 injector, though.
Definitely chase up all mechanical possibilities first. Get the injectors flowed. Rule out anything mechanical in nature first, THEN we'll freak about out 'silent but deadly' knock.

How much higher were your IATs on the track compared to when you tuned on the dyno?

Fuel slosh when running ~1.5 g around the banking?
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:02 PM   #451
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We have "knocksense" ...
That thing is mostly a useless toy since you can't specify the noise curve of the engine over the rpm range, doesn't know when the ignition events are (to listen for knock where it is expected), etc. - things which the decent ECU have. Also, the decent ECUs have EGR probe per cylinder and the ECU can turn the engine in limp mode if it notices something's going on with a cylinder ...

Btw, just for a comparison the Superlap Battle Finale winner and the 3rd place overall Redline Finale finisher Sierra-Sierra EVO is controlling their Cosworth engine with a Pectel SQ6 (and Pectel EDC computer controlling the differential). Price is around $5000 for just the ECU.






The AMS Performance EVO X (the one which finished first in AWD and second overall at the Redline Finale) is running AEM EMS as far as I know.



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Old 11-17-2009, 10:11 PM   #452
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That thing is mostly a useless toy since you can't specify the noise curve of the engine over the rpm range, doesn't know when the ignition events are (to listen for knock where it is expected), etc. - things which the decent ECU have. Also, the decent ECUs have EGR probe per cylinder and the ECU can turn the engine in limp mode if it notices something's going on with a cylinder .
Too bad you're talking to a bunch of budget racers and not someone with money like FX, Sierra^2, GST, or even the damn privateers. A "decent" computer is like 2-months of my income. Hopefully a Motec 8c or something will fall out of the sky. Does the AEM EMS properly control knock, log and adjust EGT/cylinder, and all that other fun stuff that's beyond my Neanderthal comprehension level?

More reason to leave my car on the wastegate spring and smile every time I get in and enjoy being slow compared to people like Matt and Andrew.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:02 PM   #453
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Too bad you're talking to a bunch of budget racers and not someone with money like FX, Sierra^2, GST, or even the damn privateers. A "decent" computer is like 2-months of my income. Hopefully a Motec 8c or something will fall out of the sky. Does the AEM EMS properly control knock, log and adjust EGT/cylinder, and all that other fun stuff that's beyond my Neanderthal comprehension level?

More reason to leave my car on the wastegate spring and smile every time I get in and enjoy being slow compared to people like Matt and Andrew.
I know and I agree with what you say - maybe one should stay away from the ragged edge if there is no some big sponsorship/budget to take care of the stuff breaking.
About the AEM EMS - It can control, log and adjust knock & EGT - how is that compared to the real stuff like Pectel, Motec, etc. I am not sure. AMS seem to use it in their $$$$$$ car so I guess it is not that bad. But Pectel & Motec should be better - I have not doubts about this, but it comes with the big price.

Btw, FX won overall, class, etc. whatever can be won at Redline, but did you read what they went through just this last weekend? That's some serious money playing fix up the stuff breaking all the time. Here is the quote about their last weekend:

"The win sealed Billy's Redline Time Attack Championship's in both Unlimited and Unlimited RWD classes.
The victory by the FXMD team was not without drama. On Saturday the right rear tire de-beaded in Nascar Turn 2 at 150mph, putting the NSX sideways at the wall. Billy caught the slide only to have the back end swing around again which put the NSX right next to the wall. Johnson caught the second slide and got the car under control. Unfortunately the shredding tire destroyed the KW 3-way shock's remote reservoir and killed the shock. Fortunately KW's Chris Marion was there with a backup set of shocks and the car was able to be repaired.
Sunday initially turned out really well with the FXMD team being the fastest in the 2 practice sessions. Then on the 2nd session disaster struck again, the transaxle input shaft on the NSX snapped in half. The FXMD team did an amazing job swapping the transaxle on the ground with no lift, installing a stock transaxle, the teams only spare. This transaxle wasn't prepped, and was equipped with the inferior US-spec wide ratio gear stack. The spare transaxle had a partially effective stock LSD, unlike the tuned OS Giken LSD the team normally uses which caused spinning of the inside tire at over 100mph.
To try to make up time lost due to the inferior transaxle, the team increased the boost, raised the ride height and switched to a different alignment and stiffer spring rates to better cope with the increased loading of the banking the team was able to knock off almost 2 seconds from a lap time of 1:37.7 to a 1:36.103 for the overall win.
FXMD's Yokohama Slicks, KW 3-way motorsport dampers, and Performance Friction Forged Monoblock (multi-pad) calipers and 2pc floating rotors worked flawlessly to help achieve FXMD's 5th (out of 5) Overall victory and track record, Unlimited Class Championship, and title of Undefeated in RTA 2009."

Changing dampers, changing transaxles, setting different alignments in the pits, changing spring rates, etc.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:27 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Too bad you're talking to a bunch of budget racers and not someone with money like FX, Sierra^2, GST, or even the damn privateers. A "decent" computer is like 2-months of my income. Hopefully a Motec 8c or something will fall out of the sky. Does the AEM EMS properly control knock, log and adjust EGT/cylinder, and all that other fun stuff that's beyond my Neanderthal comprehension level?

More reason to leave my car on the wastegate spring and smile every time I get in and enjoy being slow compared to people like Matt and Andrew.
exactly! i want to be fast. but coming from drag racing dsm's. i'd rather be a little slower than swapping big expensive parts after each track event. 230whp is gonna have to do for now. i've seen very fast lap times from cars with proper tuning, not power, but everything else. suspension, alignment, aero, brakes, and most important of all........... driver tuning!
btw, yes, i believe you can tune ind. cylinders with an aem. if not, i know for sure you can datalog individual cylinders. i have a feeling sav's problem is more mechanical than anything. maybe bad injector. i don't think the other cylinders would look that good compared to #3 if there was a tuning problem going on. at least not on that cylinder. you know? why of all cylinder's would that one have been bad? as soon as he mentioned blow-by/dipstick out, i imagined broken ringland. i've seen that alot. i know alot of peeps that have pushed their stock motors after having a built one ready to drop in. a good one was a b16 civic turbo (t4 62-1 turbo) 509whp! another with a built motor was my buddy's 675whp civic. he sold it to another guy. and that guys room mate took his car for a spin when he was working. the car was low on gas and when he punched it, it starved for fuel, detonated, and broke a ringland on a JE piston.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:57 PM   #455
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eek!

Its good for me to have these reality check threads so I can remember that my green car is about putting a smile on my face, not winning races. I'm like an old man with a Ferrari...drive it to the (disc) golf course/gym/work 1 day per week...but beat on rich people at the track once per month. I'll have to get an American Iron car to go wheel to wheel and tear up in competitive racing.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:33 AM   #456
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Have you thought about sending your injectors out to get them flow tested to eliminate that as a cause?
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:20 AM   #457
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20 is not unheard of at his boost lvl my turbo wont support that much flow but considering my map and smaller turbo on 17 psi running the same if not more timming. I would think its probly a fuel flow issue cause by momentary starvation while save was hauling *** from 160 mph, to 80-100 mph making the turn. 3gph is alil anemic for your new power lvl though save maybe you should up the line pressure abit or size the nozzle a little biger and have the onset of WI come on later.
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Also another issue could be your WI pickup and pump loosing contact with the contents of the tank. I saw this to a smaller degree when i was running only 1 tank, vs the 2 i run now one reinforcing the flow of the other.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:21 AM   #458
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A few thoughts on exploding Miata engines:

* Running aggressive timing maps on high boost engines triggered off an optical sensor on the other end of the cam attached to 18" of cam belt is not the best solution. I'm sorting a 60-2 wheel for the AEM in the OGK as I just don't trust it otherwise.

* The stock manifold has 4 different length runners. They will all have different flow characteristics. Haven't figured out exactly what we're going to do for an intake manifold yet. We are prototyping a non metallic version but not sure how it will hold up in a race environment.

* Unless you can measure EGT's individually, we are tuning only to a mean average of the four cylinder's AFR & EGT. The production 949 Racing header will have an EGT bung in #3 available as an option. The one being built for the OGK has four EGT bungs since the AEM will read them with an adapter box. Fugly but safe.

* The BP engine in a Miata, like most other production cars, will oil starve on long high G turns. Seems to be after about 5 sec sustained G. I'd love to fit a dry sump in the OGK but it poses packaging problems considering the Rotrex's drive pulley is also on the nose of the crank. So we'll set up an auto fired Accusump.
Prather Racing - National Championship Road Racing Engines
Mazda Miata Dry Sump Oil Pans

* Double or triple pass radiators FTW. I'm running a dinky 37mm Koyo without issues now but I'm pretty sure it won't cope with 280whp and 3 hour enduros.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:34 AM   #459
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have you looked at the wheel joe perez made for his setup emelio it was pretty awesome. Also i believe that only the 1.6's where optical trigger on the cas, the 1.8's where magnetic or maybe its the other way around, anyway both of them swap pretty much at will with no issues so that might be something to consider if you feel you are loosing resolution, or simply accuracy at the higher end of things.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:50 AM   #460
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I'm sorting a 60-2 wheel for the AEM in the OGK as I just don't trust it otherwise.
The AEM EMS can't deal with more than 12 tooth wheel so 60-2 is overkill and to make it work you'll be setting the software to skip the majority of the teeth.
The optimal is to make a 12 tooth wheel out of an OEM one since it will be an OEM like fit. I am still trying to find a machine shop which can cut those 12 teeth in an OEM blank
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