EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning) - Page 5 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 06-16-2009, 04:11 PM   #81
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vocabulary fail.

Avoid description also avoids someone snagging your design. Stamp FM all over that thing and paint it purple, lol. I would.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:45 PM   #82
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needs more cliffhanger... NOT!

I am having my nuclear Resbond delivered next week. Still need to inspect what the Nürburgring did to the studs/nuts. Depending on how bad it is I will redo it before next Thursday (another track day) or shortly after...

@hustler: is your Resbond in yet? I'd just go with new studs, copper coated nuts, Rebond and retorque to 55Nm^H^Hlbsft after each heat cycle for the first couple of runs. I sort of can't believe that will fall off, unless the studs themselves break - which I don't think: they break after the nuts loosen.

Last edited by Laur3ns; 06-16-2009 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:26 PM   #83
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not yet. I'm trying to get it done this weekend if I have time before going back to OKC. I'm going to...
take the turbo and manifold to a machine shop to get the nuts cut off, broken studs removed, and flanges resurfaced
resbond on the manifold side of the studs torqued to 20lb/ft
stage8 nuts with lots of anti-seize on the turbo side torque to 30lb/ft
resbond on the nuts and studs for the top 3 dp hardwares
4-hours to cure
pathetic attempt to hit 300* in the hot side over 3-hours to cure for best possible strength by running the car for 2 minutes at a time
sip a feauty, holla at a shawty

Going easy on the torque will only help them stretch rather than break.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:12 PM   #84
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Any tips on taking broken bolts out of the manifold or turbine housing...especially the 2 countersunk broken examples? I just talked to my machinist of choice and he recommended a process called EDM where a tungsten rod is used to melt the broken stud down to roughly .005" to the threads, then they clean it out with a tap. He recommended squaring-off the exposed studs to grip with pliars, then getting them beat red with a torch, and melting candle wax over them because it will seep below the surface and lubricate on extraction. Hopefully I can extract with an easy-out...but I'm trying to be realistic.

I might just send this **** back to BEGi and beg them to help me. I can't seem to find a machinist who will do the work, and my machinist of choice has too much work to deal with this stuff in a timely fashion.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:23 PM   #85
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A quick and dirty method I have used before is to drill a hole in the center of the broken bolt/stud with a drill, assuming the bolt material is not too hard to drill. I use a drill bit that is maybe 1/3-1/2 of the minor diameter of the stud/bolt. I then pound a torx bit into the hole that is slightly larger than the drilled hole. Pound it in as far as possible, then unscrew. The idea is the points on the torx bite into the hole. This has worked for me several times before. You have already probably done so, but soak that stud with some penetrating lube.

I would try this before the EDM. The EDM will 'cut' anything that is conductive so if you break off a hardened tool in the hole then you have not made it much more difficult to EDM, if any. EDM (electrical discharge machining) is the ****, but it is usually slow, and can be expensive.

Taken out of context, some of those sentences sound pretty ghey
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
A quick and dirty method I have used before is to drill a hole in the center of the broken bolt/stud with a drill, assuming the bolt material is not too hard to drill. I use a drill bit that is maybe 1/3-1/2 of the minor diameter of the stud/bolt. I then pound a torx bit into the hole that is slightly larger than the drilled hole. Pound it in as far as possible, then unscrew. The idea is the points on the torx bite into the hole. This has worked for me several times before. You have already probably done so, but soak that stud with some penetrating lube.

I would try this before the EDM. The EDM will 'cut' anything that is conductive so if you break off a hardened tool in the hole then you have not made it much more difficult to EDM, if any. EDM (electrical discharge machining) is the ****, but it is usually slow, and can be expensive.

Taken out of context, some of those sentences sound pretty ghey
yes, but you make gay feel right. thoughts on ez outs? I feel like I have to work, but pulling out never works anywhere but the driveway even if you have significant penetration. Then again my father always said, "when in doubt, pull out." Or maybe it was "when in doubt, whip it out." Anyone want to come over and help?
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:07 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Any tips on taking broken bolts out of the manifold or turbine housing...especially the 2 countersunk broken examples? I just talked to my machinist of choice and he recommended a process called EDM where a tungsten rod is used to melt the broken stud down to roughly .005" to the threads, then they clean it out with a tap. He recommended squaring-off the exposed studs to grip with pliars, then getting them beat red with a torch, and melting candle wax over them because it will seep below the surface and lubricate on extraction. Hopefully I can extract with an easy-out...but I'm trying to be realistic.

I might just send this **** back to BEGi and beg them to help me. I can't seem to find a machinist who will do the work, and my machinist of choice has too much work to deal with this stuff in a timely fashion.


My machinist does the hot wax trick, seems to work really well for them.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:09 PM   #88
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My machinist does the hot wax trick, seems to work really well for them.
so do we have proof of concept, or is that research? lol

I'm definitely trying it. I would be ******* floored if I could get my car running in time to take it to OKC with me so i don't have to wait until September to drive it again.
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:13 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
yes, but you make gay feel right.
If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right...

Never tried the hot wax trick. Oh wait, there was this one time, at band camp...

I assumed the studs were broken off flush. If not, and there is some protruding, I agree with Ben, I would square off the protruding sides and try that wax-and-pliers trick. I would for sure use really strong vise-grips locked down as tight as possible. I would leave as much material as possible when squaring off the stud if you can; just take it down to the bottom of the threads.

I have tried ez-outs with mixed success. The problem is if they break in the hole you are fucked (hardened tool steel, no way to drill it out). With the torx method you can always use shitty Auto-Zone Great Neck torx bits and maybe be able to drill it out if you break it off. Usually though if the torque is too much they just rotate in the hole, and you pound it in farther, or go up one size and try again.

Damn... more out-of-context gheyness
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:02 AM   #90
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I'm interested in whatever we can do to keep these from backing out. My S kit just arrived and I've yet to assemble the manifold. I'm still relatively new to the track (meaning I'm still slow), but plan on going a lot more over the next few months.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:09 AM   #91
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i've been thinking about this again, and leaning toward bolts with thick-*** safetywire laced with a crimp. Its easier, reversible, and used by the military.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:17 AM   #92
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What about Nord-Lock washers? FM has some, and you can get any size you want from mcmaster. I just put some on based on another thread, so I don't know how they work yet.

I don't track, but the theory looks like they'd hold up...
Petition to ban the next person who suggests Nordlock washers in this thread.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:29 AM   #93
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I think the Stage-8 fasteners, but using bolts instead of studs/nuts, is a better idea. Either that or Stage-8 with high-temp threadlocked studs.

Safety wire is hard to get right in cramped spaces. I am speaking from experience.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:34 AM   #94
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I think the Stage-8 fasteners, but using bolts instead of studs/nuts, is a better idea. Either that or Stage-8 with high-temp threadlocked studs.

Safety wire is hard to get right in cramped spaces. I am speaking from experience.
both options are available to me. One is fairly easy to reverse, the other will be a nightmare.

If the stage 8 won't fit on the housing, then I'm doing bolts. That's a pretty good elimination process. Considering my pincher nuts no longer pinch and can be taken off by hand until they seize, I think a mechanical lock will be required in some capacity. If this **** works through 3 track events, my $2k in savings will go toward water injection and a toyota tacoma. Its been like 5-days without my car to roll around and I feel compromised and depressed. I have to get that ****** back on the road this weekend...then rape and spit at Hallett on July 3rd.

Savington, why not nylon lock washers?
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:36 AM   #95
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The hot wax/melted candle trick is fairly well known, and I've never heard anything but praises for the trick, although I've never used it myself.

We have an EDM machine at work, its pretty interesting. Kind of looks like you're welding underwater, as it shoots this coolant type stuff into the hole while it sparks a bunch. It is a little slow, and since it 'cuts' anything conductive, if you misalign the tip, you can cut through the threads. Even if you're perfectly aligned, generally it'll spark a bit and melt bits of your thread. At least with our machine it's not a very precise thing.

Keith, I call dibs on being a test sled. I'll even let you install them personally if you'd like. And then of course I'll thrash the **** out of them for ya.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:42 AM   #96
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so do we have proof of concept, or is that research? lol

I'm definitely trying it. I would be ******* floored if I could get my car running in time to take it to OKC with me so i don't have to wait until September to drive it again.
so that I can drive up to wherever you are to trailer your broken-*** car back to TX?
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:47 AM   #97
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so that I can drive up to wherever you are to trailer your broken-*** car back to TX?
next time a bolt fails I'll work on it at home. I've never had exhaust hardware seize like this.
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:53 AM   #98
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I'll try out this stage-8 stuff. I don't see nearly as much track time as most but I autox regularly, most of the time with a co-driver. Hell, I had a nut come off when I was up at the dragon two weeks back :(.
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:12 PM   #99
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so do we have proof of concept, or is that research? lol



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Old 06-17-2009, 12:22 PM   #100
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I have my Resbond here. Now need to decide how far I take it apart and what I replace with what to put it together. I have a new exhaust gasket, Resbond et al.
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