EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning) - Page 14 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 07-06-2009, 03:52 PM   #261
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2 Questions...

1- Is the issue as apparent on the BeGi manifold(M10) vs the FM Manifold? I had read somewhere they are coming from the same foundry, so same material, only different castings and bolt sizes. BeGi being M10 off the bat.

2- Have we heard anything back from FM about their solution?
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:20 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
The standard thread A-286 hardware should not be hard to find. The metric is the tough one.

I am looking for the following:
- A-286 is the material (high-strength stainless steel, 150 ksi or so), or whatever the ISO/DIN equivalent material is.
- Socket head cap screws, 10mm x 1.5 pitch, 35mm grip length. Only need 4, but always a good idea to have a couple of extras.
- Washers to go with that too, minimum outer diameter, just slightly larger than the head. The washers preferably need to be A-286 as well, or another high-strength stainless steel, so they do not compress under the load. Only need 4, but always a good idea to have a couple of extras.

If he can find them, great
Well my guy got back with me and he can get the screws in a Hex head but they cost $30 each. Socket head would be custom and cost more.
All I could say was WOW!
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:52 PM   #263
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Not surprised on the price. That is about the same as the Mcmaster fasteners in the inch thread sizes. Thanks for checking into that.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:54 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Does this mean that studs can "break in" such that new studs need to be re-torqued a few times after a new installation?
It depends on how much they are yielding, which is hard to determine without knowing more about the CTE of the turbine casting alloy, which I have still not heard back from ATP on. Even then it is a guess I think since I would have to assume everything is at the same peak temperature, which it probably is not.

If it is only yielding a few microns then probably not. If it is yielding a few thousands each time it is heat cycled...
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:58 PM   #265
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Update: 304 studs and 15mm head flange nuts*. Track day at Spa Francorchamps: studs look fine, better than ever before, but 2 nuts spun off completely and I was making 0.2bar after a number of laps. Should have used Resbond on them or copper coated nuts.

*) This kind:
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:15 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Update: blah blah... Track day at Spa Francorchamps blah blah...
That is about how I read your message. I am green with envy. YOU SUCK!

So the studs stayed tight and the nuts came loose? Did you get any of the Resbond in the group buy? It would be interesting for you to try some and see if it fixes the problem.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:54 PM   #267
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Spooky,

You mentioned earlier you had Resbond. Why didn't you use it this time around?

Also, those are standard looking flange nuts. Is that what OTS use?

What did you mean by "the studs looked better than before"? Just because they look less heat-cycled?
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:30 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Update: 304 studs and 15mm head flange nuts*. Track day at Spa Francorchamps: studs look fine, better than ever before, but 2 nuts spun off completely and I was making 0.2bar after a number of laps. Should have used Resbond on them or copper coated nuts.

*) This kind:
do you have a job? lol


this is good news. I have stage-8 lockers. Maybe my **** will actually hold together and I can be a man for the first time in my life.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:47 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Maybe my **** will actually hold together
Possibly,

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
be a man for the first time in my life.
doubtful.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:03 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Update: 304 studs and 15mm head flange nuts*. Track day at Spa Francorchamps: studs look fine, better than ever before, but 2 nuts spun off completely and I was making 0.2bar after a number of laps. Should have used Resbond on them or copper coated nuts.

*) This kind:
other than the serrations on the bottom face, what locking feature do those nuts have?
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:38 AM   #271
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Ok, so, I don't hit the track. I don't even drive as hard as I used to. But I used to lose bolts, studs, nuts, washers, everything you can think of so regularly that the fact I haven't in a while is worth mentioning. The last time I lost a stud, it shot out under pressure and pinged the side of my fender, I thought something badwrong happened. :-)


Anyway, after putting these badboys on:


I stopped having problems. Not a single problem. Not loosening, not turning, not backing out, not just being gone one day. They've been f'ing perfect.

Basically, it was just this:


Big studs. And decent lock nuts. I don't even think all the threads are engaged. But I've had so many sets of threads, etc, nothing ever worked. You had two choices, break the studs/housing/nuts/etc or have them back out. Even if you tightened them weekly, you'd lose one once in a while.

I'd done Nord-Locks, I liked them, but they didn't actually work. :-)

Plus, how often do you get to bust out your mexican potato sack shirt?
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:40 AM   #272
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Quote:
So the studs stayed tight and the nuts came loose? Did you get any of the Resbond in the group buy? It would be interesting for you to try some and see if it fixes the problem.
Yes I have Resbond, by myself. I don't need a group buy for it
Quote:
You mentioned earlier you had Resbond. Why didn't you use it this time around?
Because I wanted to do exactly what OTS does to their setup and I only had 3 hours to get it all together and adding Resbond increases complexity (you need to tighten it up pretty quickly or it will dry out on you, that sounds nasty).
Quote:
Also, those are standard looking flange nuts. Is that what OTS use?
None, other than that they were yellowish so either they were pied on or they are some kind of stainless. I will ask them. I will either use these again with Resbond (I like the big flange and larger head to there is more material to grip) or copper coated 14mm head with a washed, but I've been warping washers since day one so I would need to look for different washers there.
Quote:
What did you mean by "the studs looked better than before"? Just because they look less heat-cycled?
Yes they look way less carboned up and the nuts rotate freely (as new) instead of rusty. Time will tell...
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:18 AM   #273
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yellow nuts are cad plated regular low-carbon steel. probably 8.8 grade.

i'm not surprised they didnt all spin off.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:40 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
yellow nuts are cad plated regular low-carbon steel. probably 8.8 grade. i'm not surprised they didnt all spin off.
Cool to know. On a side note: the OEM exhaust nuts (M10x1.25 I think) with deformed heads are tight as hell. But there are 9 of 'm.
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:10 AM   #275
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The head stays relatively cool. The collector OTOH, is probably the hottest part in the whole car.
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Old 07-10-2009, 02:41 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Ok, so, I don't hit the track. I don't even drive as hard as I used to. But I used to lose bolts, studs, nuts, washers, everything you can think of so regularly that the fact I haven't in a while is worth mentioning. The last time I lost a stud, it shot out under pressure and pinged the side of my fender, I thought something badwrong happened. :-)


Anyway, after putting these badboys on:
What size and material are the studs? Where'd you get them from?

What kind of nuts are those? Haven't seen those before.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:14 AM   #277
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Good questions all. I know I got them from McMaster. A bit spendy for what's just plain nuts and bolts.



Code:
1	91059A561	METRIC CLASS 8.8 STEEL SELF-LOCKING STUD, M10, 52MM OVERALL LENGTH, 1.5MM PITCH, PLAIN STEEL 	4
EA	4	0	2.24
EA	8.96
 
2	91059A566	METRIC CLASS 8.8 STEEL SELF-LOCKING STUD, M10, 62MM OVERALL LENGTH, 1.5MM PITCH, PLAIN STEEL 	4
EA	4	0	3.27
EA	13.08
 
3	94235A110	METRIC CADMIUM-PLTD STL HEX FLEX-TOP LOCKNUT, M10 SCREW SZ, 1.5MM PITCH, 15MM WIDTH, 13MM HEIGHT T 	4
PK	4	0	2.67
PK	10.68
 
4	93795A240	CLASS 8 ZINC-PLATED STEEL CONICAL-TOP LOCKNUT, HEX, M10 SCREW SZ, 1.5MM PITCH, 17MM WIDTH, 10MM H H 	1
PK	1	0	4.52
PK	4.52
 
5	91812A231	316 STAINLESS STEEL WEDGE LOCK WASHER, 3/8"/M10 SCREW SIZE, .41" ID, .63" OD, .09" THICK 	1
PK	1	0	12.86
PK	12.86
That was my order. Now let me figure out what I used...
I know I didn't use the washer. You should be able to tell the nuts used from the picture, but I think it was the 'hex flextop' style. (verified).

Lengths, I'm not yet sure. I think I used 3 of one and one of another to clear in there... I know I didn't use the lock washers.


One side note: I ground out around the nuts to make room to get a wrench on there - this took some work with a die grinder. It seemed over the top at the time, but did make things easier once I got it all back on the car. I think I snugged the nuts up once after a few days and some heat cycles, but I'm not sure if they moved at all.

Really, all in all, it actually worked. Highly recommended. BTW, most if not all of the holes in the manifold are through holes now.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:40 AM   #278
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@AbeFM: input appreciated, but as you don't track your car your solution has not proven itself.
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Old 07-10-2009, 03:10 PM   #279
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You can say what you will about my driving, and I'm sure the track is a rougher environment, but I've snapped off fuel rails, STB, and about everything imaginable. I've lost studs/nuts on the turbo on at *least* 12 occasions, and it stopped happening when I did this.

So, if you want to be a pioneer, and use something an order of magnitude better, give it a shot. or, just wire your hardware and be done with it. I did qualify my statements as such. I've tried spring locks, locking nuts, nord locks, big wrenches, small wrenched, tightening bi-weekly, anti-sieze, pretty much anything you can think of, and this seemed to solve it.
After sharing that, my contribution is done. Perhaps something that works off the track is more useful than something which fails on it. I'm not selling something here, I'm trying to help.
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Old 07-10-2009, 08:46 PM   #280
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So to summarize if I have an FM cast manifold I should
1.Drill the manifold/turbo housing to accept 10mm(or larger?) studs
2.Use stainless studs
3.resbond the studs in the mainfold
4.Locking hardware for the nuts and maybe resbond

Has anyone used Rosan studs for something like this-they have a locking collar in the center of the stud between the threads. I believe the collar has to be driven into the base material so i am not sure it would work if you weren't running a thicker gasket etc. But it might help with studs backing out if it could be made to work. of course it wouldnt help with the stretching of the studs but perhaps these other steps would cover all the angles.
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