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Old 12-15-2013, 11:02 AM   #861
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This is genuinely one of the most impressive pictures which has ever been posted to this forum, for reasons which will be obvious to CA residents.

I can't believe that it's DECEMBER, and numbers are still available. WTF happened out there?
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:46 PM   #862
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LOL maybe he bribed the DMV
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:03 PM   #863
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What's it? Some kind of smog-exemption or something?
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Old 12-15-2013, 10:56 PM   #864
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Default SB100

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What's it? Some kind of smog-exemption or something?
SB100 or a "Special Conditions" vehicle registration is for 500 cars per year that don't fit into the standard mold. It was created by a California legislator who wanted to build his own Cobra replica, and realized that his car (and others like it) didn't fit anywhere in the "system".

So now home built cars, custom cars, custom dune buggies and other vehicles (up to 500 per year) can be licensed in California. There are hoops you need to jump through, but one of the nice points is that an SB100 car with no year designation will default to the year 1960...and 1960's smog regulations.

Actually you can register your car SB100 as engine type or body style. If you choose engine type, it must be an engine that has passed inspection in California (not Iowa or Germany), must have all the period correct smog additions, and jump through a ton of other hoops. That's why 99% of SB100 registrations are "body style". That means pretty much any engine is legal, including turbo, supercharged, non-catalytic converter, etceteras. The only thing not allowed is anything stolen, and the CHP will run all VIN numbers to make sure.

For the first few years since SB100 was enacted in 1991, all 500 vouchers were spoken for within the first hours of the first day that the DMV was open during a new year. Now most of the custom cars are licensed, the economy is sucking wind, and SB100 vouchers may still be available from LAST year.

The problem is that SB100 is still not fully understood by cops or even the DMV. There are some "gray areas" involved with the rule, and it's up to the cop to decide how to administer the law as they understand it. So just as one cop will never write a ticket in his lifetime for a missing front license plate, another will pull over 100 cars in a day for the same infraction. For example, Ariel Atoms are licensed in California under SB100, and yet some cops want to pull them over because they don't look like your average car.
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Old 12-15-2013, 11:13 PM   #865
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Ariel Atoms are licensed in California under SB100
I did not know that.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:24 PM   #866
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Default Wideband goodness

I picked up an interesting wideband O2 sensor from 14Point7 | 14Point7 High Performance Tuning tools for high performance engines. It's fully digital and the circuitry is built into the wiring.

It's a four wire hook-up: power, ground, narrow band emulation and wide band reading. So if you're using your stock ecu, then you hook up the narrow band wire for the ecu and connect the wide band to your gauge.

If you've got a MSPNP then you hook up the wide band directly to your ecu.

Does it work? We'll find out...
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:29 PM   #867
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Those have been around for a while. 14.7 started out as a maker of kits, not they're trying to move up and compete with Innovate. That's basically a knockoff of the old LC-1, which is the same deal- cable and controller in one, wire directly to the ECU.

A few people here have used their products, and claim that they don't suck.
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Those have been around for a while. 14.7 started out as a maker of kits, not they're trying to move up and compete with Innovate. That's basically a knockoff of the old LC-1, which is the same deal- cable and controller in one, wire directly to the ECU.

A few people here have used their products, and claim that they don't suck.
They recently updated their website from "stone-age" to "not finished". I hope that doesn't reflect on their product. Personally I like the idea of having the fully digital wideband that I can use to replace the stock O2 sensor, and then let Mr. MSPNP autotune for me....I'm lazy that way.
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:32 PM   #869
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They recently updated their website from "stone-age" to "not finished". I hope that doesn't reflect on their product.
Well, the product is certainly less refined than comparable offerings from AEM, Innovate, etc., in terms of packaging and documentation. I don't have the first-hand experience to say whether the functionality is comparable to the more costly (and mature) product offerings, only that it feels kind of cheap and cheesy.



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Personally I like the idea of having the fully digital wideband that I can use to replace the stock O2 sensor, and then let Mr. MSPNP autotune for me....I'm lazy that way.
Actually, that unit still uses an analog output to communicate with the MS.

If you want a fully digital system, you'll need to use the Innovate LC-1 (or its successor, the LC-2) and convert the RS-232 output into CAN, which the MS can then ingest directly without the need for D/A and A/D conversion.

This is not a fully mature technology, but it's been done. Some info:

Megasquirt MSEXTRA / MS3EFI • TinyIOx: read LC1 digital data. Now with generic PWM (View topic)

TinyIOx v1.0 Board
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:11 PM   #870
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
If you want a fully digital system, you'll need to use the Innovate LC-1 (or its successor, the LC-2) and convert the RS-232 output into CAN, which the MS can then ingest directly without the need for D/A and A/D conversion.

This is not a fully mature technology, but it's been done. Some info:

Megasquirt MSEXTRA / MS3EFI • TinyIOx: read LC1 digital data. Now with generic PWM (View topic)

TinyIOx v1.0 Board
This is what I got: Spartan Lambda Sensor | 14Point7

Among the features and benefits, it says "Utilizes our patent pending Binary Drive technology, no other system is more digital."

You know in your heart that advertising doesn't lie, right Joe?!

Hey, I'm taking the $105 gamble...
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:09 PM   #871
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It can't really be digital if it doesn't have a digital output...

But still, even those with purely digital systems such as LC-1/MTX-L and the more will use analog outputs... You're set to go!
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:23 PM   #872
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
This is what I got: Spartan Lambda Sensor | 14Point7

Among the features and benefits, it says "Utilizes our patent pending Binary Drive technology, no other system is more digital."
Yes, I know what the marketing says.

The 14.7 products, however, have only 0-5v analog outputs. This was the dominant standard in wideband controllers for years, and is still the most common interface.

The LC-1 and -2, however, have a serial output which is compatible with the MS2 and MS3 when an RS-232 to CANbus converter is used. Thus, they are the only wideband controllers with which it is possible to create a complete, end-to-end digital interface.

This is not a trivial matter, as miscalibration between the wideband controller and the ECU is the most common source of error in these systems. The error is not usually large (a few tenths is typical), however it is certainly measurable.
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:06 PM   #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Yes, I know what the marketing says.

The 14.7 products, however, have only 0-5v analog outputs. This was the dominant standard in wideband controllers for years, and is still the most common interface.

The LC-1 and -2, however, have a serial output which is compatible with the MS2 and MS3 when an RS-232 to CANbus converter is used. Thus, they are the only wideband controllers with which it is possible to create a complete, end-to-end digital interface.

This is not a trivial matter, as miscalibration between the wideband controller and the ECU is the most common source of error in these systems. The error is not usually large (a few tenths is typical), however it is certainly measurable.
14point7 states that it's pre-calibrated, and has an error percentage under .01%. Bottom line is can I hook this puppy to my MSPNP2? Or should I call the Canadian Better Business Bureau, and do I need to know French?
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:28 PM   #874
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
14point7 states that it's pre-calibrated, and has an error percentage under .01%.
And I'm sure that they're correct, from the point of view of the output of the device relative to its own internal ground.

Where errors tend to develop is in the interface between two analog machines, such as are caused by offsets in ground potential. (This is why it is critically important to ground wideband O2 sensors, as will all analog sensors, directly to the ECU itself.)


Quote:
Bottom line is can I hook this puppy to my MSPNP2?
Yes, of course. You can connect pretty much any analog sensor in the known universe to an MSPNP2 provided that its output falls within the range of 0-5v. There's no special magic to it.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:35 PM   #875
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Those have been around for a while. 14.7 started out as a maker of kits, not they're trying to move up and compete with Innovate. That's basically a knockoff of the old LC-1, which is the same deal- cable and controller in one, wire directly to the ECU.

A few people here have used their products, and claim that they don't suck.
That sounds harsh, like it was a cheap copy of some innovate product. The controller is integrated in the cable, thats all they have in common. So no way-too-early dieing sensors like on innovates for example.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:57 PM   #876
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That sounds harsh, like it was a cheap copy of some innovate product.
That's a fair criticism.



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So no way-too-early dieing sensors like on innovates for example.
On what basis do you claim "early dieing [sic] sensors?"

For starters, these units all use pretty much the same 2 or 3 OEM sensors made by Bosch. Innovate, AEM, AutoMeter, 14point7, not one of them is manufacturing their own sensor. They buy 'em from the same manufacturers that Audi, VW, etc, use.

Beyond that, my own experiance owning an LC-1 was uniformly positive (as compared to the AEM Uego which it replaced), and while the LC-1 was certainly sensitive to poor wiring practice, I've not heard of many problems from people who actually followed the instructions (and common sense) when installing them.
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Old 12-17-2013, 11:00 PM   #877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
On what basis do you claim "early dieing [sic] sensors?"

For starters, these units all use pretty much the same 2 or 3 OEM sensors made by Bosch. Innovate, AEM, AutoMeter, 14point7, not one of them is manufacturing their own sensor.

Beyond that, my own experiance owning an LC-1 was uniformly positive (as compared to the AEM Uego which it replaced), and while the LC-1 was certainly sensitive to poor wiring practice, I've not heard of many problems from people who actually followed the instructions (and common sense) when installing them.
Mine seems to kill sensors quickly, even before I melted it to the downpipe. My biggest complaint with the LC1 though is that the connector for the wideband wire is on the control module so you pretty much have to have the controller in the engine bay or under the car. Snaking that connector though some hole in the firewall once is hard enough, having to do it every 8 months is another story.
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Old 12-17-2013, 11:30 PM   #878
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I use a 14point7 sensor (SLC DIY2) and my car didn't blow up.
I haven't had an AFR gauge in the last 1.5 years and my AFRs have always been exactly spot on with every dyno I went to.
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:16 AM   #879
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That's a fair criticism.




On what basis do you claim "early dieing [sic] sensors?"

For starters, these units all use pretty much the same 2 or 3 OEM sensors made by Bosch. Innovate, AEM, AutoMeter, 14point7, not one of them is manufacturing their own sensor. They buy 'em from the same manufacturers that Audi, VW, etc, use.

Beyond that, my own experiance owning an LC-1 was uniformly positive (as compared to the AEM Uego which it replaced), and while the LC-1 was certainly sensitive to poor wiring practice, I've not heard of many problems from people who actually followed the instructions (and common sense) when installing them.
Just saying its not a knockoff, the guy (Alan To) developed it, different layout, different parts. So ist it fair to call it a knockoff?

The *dying (english is only my second language) sensors thing is all over the internet (bad place to start, i know) with people complaining that the lc1 throws codes and refuses to work with sensors that still work fine with other controllers. According to To (lol), this happens because the lc1 is the only controller that regulates sensor heating different than all the others, making it more responsive, but accelerating sensor wear (carbon deposits). Anyway, im not here to bash the lc1, i've never used one. But i have used a 14.7 one for approx 2y dd duty, no problems. Could call it a great experiance [sic].

I will now stop polluting this thread and just continue to stare at the pics
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:52 AM   #880
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Default Wideband Education

Being the wideband noob that I am, I emailed 14point7 and got an answer back quickly from Alan To. He says:


Spartan is digital in the way the drives and controls the sensor. There are 2 outputs to the sensor, heater and the pump cell.

The heater is driven with a high speed PWM signal (on/off), off @ 0v, on @ 12v. Almost every other controller does this so it is no biggie.

With spartan the pump cell is driven with only 2 discrete voltages; 0v and 5v. Inside the sensor there is a small sample chamber that stores a sample of exhaust gas; the pump cell pumps O2 into or out of the sample chamber until the gas is stoichiometric. Providing a high voltage pumps O2 out of the sample chamber, while a low voltage pumps O2 into the sample chamber. All controllers except spartan and the innovate design use a varying analog voltage to drive the pump cell. Innovate uses a programmable/constant current source while mine uses 2 discrete voltages. The analog drive method is slow, so both the spartan method and the innovate method has a speed advantage.

If you were to hook up the pump cell output to a scope, you will see that the output to the pump cell is a digital signal. I am not sure if the innovate design qualifies as digital since it does not conform to the classical 2 discrete voltage outputs.

So my definition of digital is only with respect to the way the sensor is controlled.

The output is analog but spartan has a very special feature. During initial power-up, for the first 5 seconds spartan will output a precise 1.66v. The next 5 seconds it will output 3.33v. If you use MS with a 10-20 AFR profile, 1.66v = 13.33 AFR, 3.33v = 16.66AFR, now if there are ground problems then you will see different numbers, and you can calculate an adjustment using simple math to compensate for for the ground problems. If the problem is on the MS end where the ADC has offset of linearity errors, the sample simple calculation will take care of those issues as well. I can talk more about how to make the calculations and how to do the adjustments, if anyone is interested.

A digital interface is the best choice, but among analog interfaces ours has the most accurate analog output.


Gawd I love the education I get here. Now I just have to read it two or three more times to understand...
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